Bye bye demo teams (A-10, F-15E, F-16)

[Champ Kind]

make squares green on some powerpoint slide.

This is at the very heart of what the AF's big problem is. "I don't care what it takes.... just make this red/yellow cell turn red."

not be afraid to let big AF know how 90% of the wing is NCMR for X,Y, Z reasons

It will take SQ/OG/WG CCs with balls to do this, because right now, if they tell their bosses that they are XX% N©MR, they are afraid of getting fired. I think command opportunities in the Air Force are turning into gauntlets that people run with the sole hope of making through without getting fired. "If I can just make it two years without losing anyone/bending iron/having red cells on a spreadsheet, I can make it to school and be good..."

Couple that mentality with the type of people that are typically advancing these days, and you have yourself a huge problem.

I know that there are exceptions to the above, because I have seen them. But as much of a fresh breath of air it is to see people like that, they are the exception.

[BCan]

Doesn't the FY12 RAP tasking memo make every sortie RAP? I haven't read the doc, but that is what my training guys briefed. We still have requirements for different msn sets...so I guess you could still look at the numbers and derive a dudes tactical sortie requirement.

I'll try to track down the memo...does anyone have SA on this chg?

[Guest]

Maybe they can just show videos on the big screen in lieu of an actual A-10 flying demo...

Cranium shot.

If it's the latter, then that's a shitty situation and bad on the DO.

The DO is accountable but IMHBAO, that's something your target arm should be working his ass off to try to solve.

[brabus]

It will take SQ/OG/WG CCs with balls to do this, because right now, if they tell their bosses that they are XX% N©MR, they are afraid of getting fired. I think command opportunities in the Air Force are turning into gauntlets that people run with the sole hope of making through without getting fired. "If I can just make it two years without losing anyone/bending iron/having red cells on a spreadsheet, I can make it to school and be good..."

Couple that mentality with the type of people that are typically advancing these days, and you have yourself a huge problem.

I know that there are exceptions to the above, because I have seen them. But as much of a fresh breath of air it is to see people like that, they are the exception.

Shack.

Doesn't the FY12 RAP tasking memo make every sortie RAP? I haven't read the doc, but that is what my training guys briefed. We still have requirements for different msn sets...so I guess you could still look at the numbers and derive a dudes tactical sortie requirement.

Not the way I understand it. The instrument square can pretty much be checked with any flight, but you only get one per month. With only 8 sorties per month for Exp, it makes sense only 1 is a non-tactical counter (in theory). That leaves 7 of some tactical flavor to log. NE-MX, force support, etc. are all options. In fact the new RTM specifically prohibits logging RAP on AOS movements (despite the argument of logging TI by shooting the tanker 69 million times).

The DO is accountable but IMHBAO, that's something your target arm should be working his ass off to try to solve.

True, and I'm sure Jaded's DO is clearly getting leaned on by those above, so it's not entirely his fault. However, even in the shitty position my wing's in, neither DO or CC from either squadron has ever tried to force guys to log RAP through no-fly threats, etc. I don't know what Jaded's leadership situation is, but it sounds like there's some issues if the DO is forced to resort to that option.

[Guest]

I don't know what Jaded's leadership situation is, but it sounds like there's some issues if the DO is forced to resort to that option.

To include the potential for douchemanlike conduct as a leader...

[jice]

Lots of talk about demo teams in some other threads. Figure I’d revive this one.

11 years later the F-16 and A-10 are back! 
 

Looks like there was a T-6 demo at one point in the early/mid 00s, coinciding with the T-6 coming online. Anybody have experience with that one? 
 

What are your thoughts on a revived T-6 demo team? Seems like high-school football flyovers followed by a “and come see them fly at podunk airshow tomorrow” could be a low-cost way to get young minds thinking about military aviation.

[Clark Griswold]

T-6 demo at Andrews

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HuggyU2]

I worked a few shows with the T-6 Demo Team.  Small footprint, low cost, and good publicity for the AF.  Overall, it was a real good idea... which of course means they killed it.  There are not enough demo teams to meet the demand for them, and an AF T-6 Demo would be a welcome addition to the airshow circuit... and would give the AF the ROI it wants.  

I met the Demo pilot at the airshow parties.  IIRC, he went on to leave the AF and work as a Textron T-6 Demo pilot, with some sort of involvement in AT-6 program.  

I also recall that Patty Wagstaff did the T-6 Demo for a short period of time.  I remember a story floating around that she ran that T-6 pretty hard in her routine.  Like real hard.  

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by HuggyU2

[LookieRookie]

On 9/25/2023 at 1:10 PM, HuggyU2 said:

I worked a few shows with the T-6 Demo Team.  Small footprint, low cost, and good publicity for the AF.  Overall, it was a real good idea... which of course means they killed it.  There are not enough demo teams to meet the demand for them, and an AF T-6 Demo would be a welcome addition to the airshow circuit... and would give the AF the ROI it wants.  

I met the Demo pilot at the airshow parties.  IIRC, he went on to leave the AF and work as a Textron T-6 Demo pilot, with some sort of involvement in AT-6 program.  

I also recall that Patty Wagstaff did the T-6 Demo for a short period of time.  I remember a story floating around that she ran that T-6 pretty hard in her routine.  Like real hard.  

 

That T-6 that Patty flew is at CBM. Talking to the FCF guys there, it always has problems. Apparently it was over-G’d constantly during her demos.

[hindsight2020]

15 minutes ago, LookieRookie said:

That T-6 that Patty flew is at CBM. Talking to the FCF guys there, it always has problems. Apparently it was over-G’d constantly during her demos.

Yeh, ol' Patty has always been a ham hands (and a mean drunk, but I'll stay on subject). Lotta hype on these cliques/sub-cultures, prima donnas abound. 

😁

[HuggyU2]

HindSight, you're such a dick.

But... since you brought it up...

https://www.avweb.com/news/wagstaff-says-shes-sorry-for-oshkosh-incident/

[SocialD]

8 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

HindSight, you're such a dick.

But... since you brought it up...

https://www.avweb.com/news/wagstaff-says-shes-sorry-for-oshkosh-incident/

 

 

What's the big deal, the airport was closed...   Remember when things used to be fun?

[WheelsOff]

20 hours ago, LookieRookie said:

That T-6 that Patty flew is at CBM. Talking to the FCF guys there, it always has problems. Apparently it was over-G’d constantly during her demos.

Huh.
 

Apologize for my ignorance, but why the F was she ever allowed to fly an AF plane during airshow demos? Or did this particular tail not belong to us at the time? 

[LookieRookie]

14 hours ago, WheelsOff said:

Huh.
 

Apologize for my ignorance, but why the F was she ever allowed to fly an AF plane during airshow demos? Or did this particular tail not belong to us at the time? 

I think it was an agreement between Beech and the USAF before we had our demo team.

 

 Not sure though. We may not have accepted it yet and got it cheaper

[HerkPerfMan]

15 hours ago, WheelsOff said:

Huh.
 

Apologize for my ignorance, but why the F was she ever allowed to fly an AF plane during airshow demos? Or did this particular tail not belong to us at the time? 

USAF used to loan aircraft to Lockheed Martin crews to fly C-130J demos. I think Ramstein tails were used for Paris and/or Farnsborough air shows.

[Swizzle]

8 hours ago, HerkPerfMan said:

USAF used to loan aircraft to Lockheed Martin crews to fly C-130J demos. I think Ramstein tails were used for Paris and/or Farnsborough air shows.

They did, I flew them there and back. 

[Lord Ratner]

On 9/27/2023 at 10:17 PM, HuggyU2 said:

HindSight, you're such a dick.

But... since you brought it up...

https://www.avweb.com/news/wagstaff-says-shes-sorry-for-oshkosh-incident/

"I have accepted personal responsibility for my actions by pleading no contest to the remaining reduced charges."

 

I'm not sure not-denying is the same as "accepting responsibility" 😂🤣

 

She seems like a pain in the ass.

[FourFans]

On 9/30/2023 at 7:56 AM, Lord Ratner said:

She seems like a pain in the ass.

And the FAA's new face for HIMS?  They'll probably rebrand it as HERS somehow for good ol' Patty...

[Springer]

On 9/30/2023 at 7:56 AM, Lord Ratner said:

She seems like a pain in the ass.

She wasn't in the her early days based at KAVQ (AZ).  Her hangar was across from mine (late '80's-early '90's) and would practice twice a day in the box much of the time in crappy wx that kept me grounded. Humble and down to earth in the few encounters I had with her.

Pretty dedicated as well....did the local DMAFB show in very windy conditions (the show must go on)....taxied straight back to the hangar after landing and threw up out of sight of the spectators.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Springer

[HuggyU2]

A good buddy of mine works as an aerobatic instructor for her.  He has good things to say about her.  

[KODAK]

Patty is the real deal - it’s a shame folks want to remember someone for a single poor choice measured against the entirety of their lives.  And I say this as a dude who has never drank a drop of alcohol in my life..

[Lord Ratner]

4 hours ago, KODAK said:

Patty is the real deal - it’s a shame folks want to remember someone for a single poor choice measured against the entirety of their lives.  And I say this as a dude who has never drank a drop of alcohol in my life..

That's good to hear. 

 

But that single poor choice should still have harsh consequences. 

[ClearedHot]

On 9/30/2023 at 7:56 AM, Lord Ratner said:

She seems like a pain in the ass.

She is not.  Salt of the earth and a wonderful pilot/instructor.

1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

But that single poor choice should still have harsh consequences. 

True, luckily no one was hurt.

I doubt the FAA comes after her, especially with her contrition and this being a first offense.

[O Face]

6 hours ago, KODAK said:

 And I say this as a dude who has never drank a drop of alcohol in my life..

…JOKING

[M2]

2 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

But that single poor choice should still have harsh consequences. 

You'd think, but there are people still driving in Texas with multiple DWIs! 🙄

My wife was on a jury where the accused had seven! 😡😡

I guess drive-thru liquor stores may be part of the problem!  🤠