Cracks in the code

[Murphy's Law]

https://www.csindy.com/coloradosprings/cracks-in-the-code/Content?oid=2452353&fb_source=message

Unfortunate but not surprising.

[pawnman]

Interesting that the Academies and bible colleges have a similar lack of growth in personal ethics. One theory is that because both cultures are used to rigid guidelines, they are not encouraged to think about things outside those guidelines. When a borderline situation pops up, they are unprepared to handle it because they have only followed the guidelines up to that point.

[bfargin]

Interesting that the Academies and bible colleges have a similar lack of growth in personal ethics. One theory is that because both cultures are used to rigid guidelines, they are not encouraged to think about things outside those guidelines. When a borderline situation pops up, they are unprepared to handle it because they have only followed the guidelines up to that point.

Yeah, how about the theory that since all of the "leaders" of this great nation lie, cheat, and steal in a heartbeat when they think it would help them, why potentially wouldn't someone else (military or not). And Christian institutions face the same issue in their environment as well. Church and denominational leaders who are caught in financial scandles, cheating on spouses, covering up wrong doings, abuses, etc, ... the leadership in the church isn't setting a real good example either. A complete failure in moral and ethical behavior all around.

[Rokke]

Bfargin, from what I observed at the Academy recently, I'd say you're on to something.

[afnav]

For God's sakes, they are fucking cadets, not Knights Templar.

[TrainerModel]

I remember vaguely filling out this survey they did (only because my Behaviroal Sci instructor was heavily involved in this research). They said another unused metric they use in the survey is time the cadets take, comparing how long it took them to complete it from senior year as compared to in Basic.

Essentially, you give some morality survey to a cadet 2 weeks away from graduation... you're going to get a lot of Christmas tree'd surveys.

[brewskis]

I didn't attend a service academy, but I did have a somewhat similar college experience as the service academy guys (read Cadet Corps). My school did have an honor code similar to that of the service academies, and a student/cadet run honor council to enforce it, etc.

What I found during my time in school is that the Honor Code was used increasingly to curtail traditions and activities that the staff wanted to eradicate, in the name of political correctness or professionalism. For example, freshman cadet's playing pranks on upperclassmen, or vice versa (none of destructive manner, permanent damage or the hardcore hazing type) would be crucified under the "..Lie, Cheat or Steal" type honor code. Even if you admitted to 'temporarily relocating' or 'defacing' property and fixed the problem or returned the property they would hammer you under guise of the honor code. In my opinion, it dilutes the true meaning of the Honor Code when minor things that are all-in-good fun, etc are prosecuted in this fashion. If you've read Old's book (the section where he is the Commandant, you'll understand what I am saying)

I know it was in the case at my school, and I would venture to say it's probably the same at the academies. I'm not saying that there isn't some truth to these surveys, but let's look at what is now considered an breach of the code compared to what was considered a breach the code 30 years ago.

[guineapigfury]

I remember being given one of these surveys my freshman year in college (not USAFA, thank god). I remember several of my classmates gleefully filling in that they had committed all manner of crimes including several varieties of drug abuse, theft and sexual assualt. All of them could have easily won a medal in a "Most Sheltered Suburban Kid of 1998" contest. So I wouldn't give these things too much credence.

Edited April 24, 2012 by guineapigfury

[Bucket]

I took the survey a few weeks ago. All of the scenarios had answers that one could consider "right." One of them was basically, "Your family doesn't have any food due to XXXX. Some rich guy is hording it. Do you steal it, confront him about it, or do nothing?" Seriously, the questions and answers were ridiculous. You could consider most of the options as the "right" answer; they depend on your personal opinions/views/whatever. The whole article is a stretch.

[pawnman]

Yeah, how about the theory that since all of the "leaders" of this great nation lie, cheat, and steal in a heartbeat when they think it would help them, why potentially wouldn't someone else (military or not). And Christian institutions face the same issue in their environment as well. Church and denominational leaders who are caught in financial scandles, cheating on spouses, covering up wrong doings, abuses, etc, ... the leadership in the church isn't setting a real good example either. A complete failure in moral and ethical behavior all around.

Wouldn't that imply a similar lack of ethical growth across the board? Instead, people at the academies and bible colleges show almost no growth (and apparently, regression), while kids attending private, liberal arts schools do the best, followed by kids attending what we'd consider "normal" colleges.

[Murphy's Law]

Had an athlete once tell me that the only thing that mattered was winning games and his team. Skipping training/briefings to practice/sleep or "doing whatever is necessary" to pass a class is OK because their mission is to win games. His squad mates and squadron needs came second to sports. Does he speak for every athlete? No. Did he get that mindset from the athletic department? You bet.

Yet on the other end of the spectrum is the kid running to tattle on everyone cause he is scared of a toleration hit instead of holding his fellow cadets accountable at the lowest level possible. He can't imagine being anything other than a robot. Does he speak for all the non-ICs? No. Did he get that mindset from never playing a team sport? You bet.

I think the different standards that exist there for cadets create these deviations from the norm, which is "do the right thing". A '59 grad told me about how in his day everyone held the same standard. Everyone went to the same briefings. Everyone went down to the gym in the afternoon, athlete or not. I bet they didn't have this many issues back then when terrazo gap didn't exist.

If everyone was exposed to the same daily "program".. what is and is not acceptable under the code would be pretty universal with those who deviate being sent packing. The deviating standards create a complete lack of faith in the system and that in turn creates the perception of regression. I still think cadets as a whole are an honorable bunch of people.

[SurelySerious]

His squad mates and squadron needs came second to sports.

Spoken like a true geek. I bet the squadron came to a halt because this guy was at practice, or missed a circle-jerk briefing from some motivational speaker. YGTBSM.

Edited April 24, 2012 by SurelySerious

[Guest]

Had an athlete once tell me that the only thing that mattered was winning games and his team. Skipping training/briefings to practice/sleep or "doing whatever is necessary" to pass a class is OK because their mission is to win games. His squad mates and squadron needs came second to sports. Does he speak for every athlete? No. Did he get that mindset from the athletic department? You bet.

So? I don't see the problem.

This is merely a consequence of a new culture of Tolerance, Diversity, and Political Correctness.

You can't teach a kid to respect and embrace all these aspects of nonconformity and not have that tolerance bleed over into specific moral and ethical values.

That is the post of the year right there.

[busdriver]

So? I don't see the problem.

The problem is the non IC dudes didn't really understand what the IC dudes went through and vice versa. I was cut from an IC program while I was a frosh, so I got to see a bit of both sides. I also remember one of the most physically demanding PT sessions I experienced as a freshman was led by our IC football players. Our uppers basically told the footballers that they were just leading PT, go. The end result was an incredible appreciation for the amount of dedication the IC guys have for being the best. Counter to that most of the IC guys got to see the difference in their peers performance when you have positive motivation (the footballers were extremely motivational despite demanding a grueling standard of performance) versus negative.

In the end, I never really experienced the so called T-Zo gap my freshman year. We were all banded together to "stick it to the man" one team, one fight. Fuck them, we're going to ALL make it through and there's nothing THEY can do about it because collectively, we're better than them.

[Guest]

The problem is the non IC dudes didn't really understand what the IC dudes went through and vice versa. I was cut from an IC program while I was a frosh, so I got to see a bit of both sides. I also remember one of the most physically demanding PT sessions I experienced as a freshman was led by our IC football players. Our uppers basically told the footballers that they were just leading PT, go. The end result was an incredible appreciation for the amount of dedication the IC guys have for being the best. Counter to that most of the IC guys got to see the difference in their peers performance when you have positive motivation (the footballers were extremely motivational despite demanding a grueling standard of performance) versus negative.

I know. I was one of those "footballers". It is more work than most people can comprehend.

I do not think football players are better, just saying it is an absolute shit-ton of time and energy and there's not much extra time for bullshit of any sort.

[busdriver]

I know. I was one of those "footballers". It is more work than most people can comprehend.

I do not think football players are better, just saying it is an absolute shit-ton of time and energy and there's not much extra time for bullshit of any sort.

I know, but getting both sides of that fence to really comprehend what is required of the other side is sometimes difficult. Basically the T-Zo gap is fucking bullshit, either you're a team or you're not.

[Murphy's Law]

Spoken like a true geek. I bet the squadron came to a halt because this guy was at practice, or missed a circle-jerk briefing from some motivational speaker. YGTBSM.

I was quoting someone told me. Never said I took issue with their viewpoint. But when an IC tells a squadmate to f--k off when asked to sit an hour of CQ cause he "isn't obligated to help" then it is a bit far. ICs work their asses off and get out of a lot of queep shit. That's cool. Yet, there are those who literally shit on anyone who wasn't on their team. There were non-ICs who were just as bad.

So? I don't see the problem.

Problem was that the honor code that is supposed to be universally accepted isn't in that case... and it considered OK.

The problem is the non IC dudes didn't really understand what the IC dudes went through and vice versa. I was cut from an IC program while I was a frosh, so I got to see a bit of both sides. I also remember one of the most physically demanding PT sessions I experienced as a freshman was led by our IC football players. Our uppers basically told the footballers that they were just leading PT, go. The end result was an incredible appreciation for the amount of dedication the IC guys have for being the best. Counter to that most of the IC guys got to see the difference in their peers performance when you have positive motivation (the footballers were extremely motivational despite demanding a grueling standard of performance) versus negative.

In the end, I never really experienced the so called T-Zo gap my freshman year. We were all banded together to "stick it to the man" one team, one fight. ###### them, we're going to ALL make it through and there's nothing THEY can do about it because collectively, we're better than them.

Tried to close that gap when I was a firstie. It is bullshit that cadets have such animosity towards eachother that anything a non-IC does is considered tool-ish and supporting the football team is seen as a burden. Everyone should be supporting their bros who worked their asses off in practice to bring home a win for the school. Alternatively those ICs should be upholding the standard off the field instead of viewing it as being a tool.

I know. I was one of those "footballers". It is more work than most people can comprehend.

I do not think football players are better, just saying it is an absolute shit-ton of time and energy and there's not much extra time for bullshit of any sort.

That is why the T-zo gap exists. Instead of it being an us vs them... everything should just be standardized. When ICs go to practice, so does everyone else (club sport). When there is an inspection, everyone does it. That's how the first class did it and there was no loss of faith in the system because everyone had the same system to adhere to. Why would any cadet take the code seriously when he knows that half his classmates interpret it differently and adhere to it differently based on what group they belong to. I'm not arguing that one group is better than the other. I'm simply saying that whatever the standard is, everyone should be held to it.

I know, but getting both sides of that fence to really comprehend what is required of the other side is sometimes difficult. Basically the T-Zo gap is ######ing bullshit, either you're a team or you're not.

Exactly. I hated the gap but the academy fosters it with double standards. You add that to ridiculous academic rules, drinking regs, and witch hunts daily... cadets tend to lose faith in the whole system.. including the code and the honor system that backs it... corrupt as hell.

[raimius]

I'm guessing the randomness of more than a few Christmas-treed forms probably skews the results into a pretty useless jumble. That's what happens when you sit down a bunch of cadets and tell them the survey isn't required, but they are required to sit there while it is handed out...

[Guest]

That is why the T-zo gap exists. Instead of it being an us vs them... everything should just be standardized.

I think standards are great. There should be flexibility in any standard.

When ICs go to practice, so does everyone else (club sport). When there is an inspection, everyone does it.

This is what I was talking about. You cannot compare club and varsity athletes.

Anyone who fails to participate because they are lazy is wrong. Saying everyone needs to do the exactly the same thing is just a wrong.

That's how the first class did it and there was no loss of faith in the system because everyone had the same system to adhere to.

Things have changed since then. You get that, right?

[Murphy's Law]

I realize that standards being EXACTLY identical is unrealistic. Being on a club team and being a varsity IC will never be the exact same thing.. but if everyone went down to the athletic fields together and put in the same amount of time out of their busy schedule then there wouldn't be cadets ignorant to their buddy's hardships. Everyone would be in it together. Alternatively, if you are gonna have an inspection early on a Saturday morning, noone should get a pass. USAFA shouldn't have upperclassmen yelling at one kid for gazing in the dining hall while 20 ft away IC freshmen smoke and joke with their team. I couldn't care less about inspections or meal decorum or how much cadets are made to work out in the afternoon. I'm just saying that whatever the standard is, it should apply to all. Flexibility comes in with cadets being able to choose whether to do intramurals, club, or varsity athletics. Outside of that, the general expectation should be the same for everyone. Things have changed but not for the better, in my opinion. This terrazo gap is the most visible "u vs them" mentality but its not the only one... double standards destroy all faith in the system.