Rescue Mission Commander

[JSChmed]

Didn't want to derail the previous thread about Chris, Marcus and Chuck, so here's a new one. I think a Jolly flight lead would be a much better choice for RMC than looking to the next available fighter asset.

Edited April 28, 2012 by JSChmed

[Bull-Mi-Dah]

Are you serious or just trolling?

If you are serious, what exactly do you think an RMC does and how do you think A-10 pilots are selected for the Sandy 1 upgrade?

Edited April 28, 2012 by Bull-Mi-Dah

[Cap-10]

YGBFSM...you do know that not every A-10 pilot is Sandy qual'd right?

If there was an A-10 pilot that was giving off the vibe that he would rather concentrate on the range instead of getting Sandy qual'd, I would bet my monthly paycheck that he would NEVER be upgraded...that mission is too important to let someone skate by...I'm sure A-10 pilots will chime in with their two cents.

With regards to the original incident, I'm not sure what happened to the helo wingman, but some F-15E'sm from my squadron were in the kill container next door, established comm, and got eyes on with the Sniper. Since Bagram was a stone's throw away, the Pedro's were there fairly quickly...shortly thereafter, the Sandy's showed up and took over...my two ship showed up next and having personally seen the Sandy's kick ass and take names and run that show like they owned it (because they did), I would challenge any airframe to do it better!!,

Just my $0.02.

Cheers,

Cap-10

Edit:

jschmed,

Could you add some reason behind your words? What is it about the Jolly's make them a better choice than a Sandy?

Also, where did the rest of your post go? I'm wondering why you deleted the part about A-10 guys not caring because RMC "gets in the way of my primary CAS mission" statement?

Edited April 28, 2012 by Cap-10

[JSChmed]

I realized the last part of my post was over the top and I shouldn't have posted it because I'm not looking to insult anyone or lessen anyone's contributions to the mission. So I deleted it.

I just get a little pissed when I hear people completely overlook a community that does CSAR as it's only mission when the're considering who should fulfill the RMC role. On that mission, you had dudes that probably have over 500 rescue missions between the two of them, and someone asks if the F-15s were the RMC.

[Murph]

stract called it. Y'all are too low to work RMC... especially in Afghanistan.

[Guest]

I just get a little pissed when I hear people completely overlook a community that does CSAR as it's only mission when the're considering who should fulfill the RMC role. On that mission, you had dudes that probably have over 500 rescue missions between the two of them, and someone asks if the F-15s were the RMC.

I asked if the Mudhens were the RMC.

Just so I can cage my gyros a bit would you mind letting me know who the fuck you are? Are you a helo pilot? Do you have access to 3-1?

[busdriver]

What is an RMC? What is an OSC? I can't do both from the get go, an A-10 can. But if I've got a competent Mudhen crew acting as OSC, I can act as RMC under certain circumstances. That said, if we can't delineate when a no shit Sandy 1-4 package is required versus a non-traditional CSARTF how can we stand in front of the CFACC and say "boss, you're tasking the Hogs with too much, we will no longer have the ability to bring our folks home."

If there is a Sandy1 Hog available, we'd be stupid to task RMC to anyone else. But we won't always have a Sandy1 Hog available. We need to be able to bring our folks home in all scenarios, which means we need to spread out the training burden to pick up the slack when the Hogs get tasked with other shit.

[RescueRandy]

What is an RMC? What is an OSC? I can't do both from the get go, an A-10 can. But if I've got a competent Mudhen crew acting as OSC, I can act as RMC under certain circumstances. That said, if we can't delineate when a no shit Sandy 1-4 package is required versus a non-traditional CSARTF how can we stand in front of the CFACC and say "boss, you're tasking the Hogs with too much, we will no longer have the ability to bring our folks home."

If there is a Sandy1 Hog available, we'd be stupid to task RMC to anyone else. But we won't always have a Sandy1 Hog available. We need to be able to bring our folks home in all scenarios, which means we need to spread out the training burden to pick up the slack when the Hogs get tasked with other shit.

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[BQZip01]

^^^

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[slackline]

Don't understand why this is in doubt. I have a buddy on exchange at a French unit where they think they can pull RMC because they don't have an A-10. Well guess what, they can't. They're good dudes, and CSAR is their mission, but RMC is too difficult at the altitudes we fly at as a simple reply. And as a more complicated reply, as Rainman said, if you've got access to a 3-1 you need to get back in it.

[JSChmed]

Busdriver, I agree with you.

As for the rest, I like the implication that because I'm suggesting rescue pilots act as RMC, that I must not have read the 3-1.

Any rescue pilot who does not prepare themselves to act as the RMC and would rather hide behind the BS idea that we're too low to do it properly is a friggin disgrace. Go transfer to a non- tactical aircraft and quit wasting our flight hours.

[60 driver]

Poor comms is an issue that can be mitigated. Speed and getting eyes on are irrelevant for an RMC. Delegate an OSC and have them get the info you need.

Good comm and SA not required for RMC. Copy.

I think you've gotten the right amount of attention now. Go ahead and spell out how you think this works.

[Guest]

As for the rest, I like the implication that because I'm suggesting rescue pilots act as RMC, that I must not have read the 3-1.

I was suggesting you read the CSAR section of the A-10 volume. If you have done that and you still feel like you can accomplish all those things then I am suggesting you may have a reading comprehension issue.

Any rescue pilot who does not prepare themselves to act as the RMC and would rather hide behind the BS idea that we're too low to do it properly is a friggin disgrace. Go transfer to a non- tactical aircraft and quit wasting our flight hours.

I like the idea that you want to be aggressive and that you are going to try to make the mission happen no matter what.

Just whipping your dick out and saying you can take this on because you are man enough to do so doesn't make practical sense.

You need to spend some time learning about what the RMC actually does. Maybe you can do some FWIC support and watch the A-10 students from start to finish on a mission?

I cannot imagine trying to be the RMC in a helo on an opposed CSAR. There's just no way I could have the SA required to make the RMC calls and complete the RMC tasks if I was in a helo. No way. I'm not saying this because I thinkse helo pilots have no SA. It is because you cannot get the required SA if you are in a helo. It takes several A-10s to do what you want to do with one helo. Clear your mind and think about that for 30 seconds.

This is extremely obvious to me. It appears you have a contrary belief that you can locate, authenticate and protect the survivor, ID threats, control the strikes, RECCE the routes, escort yourself and cover yourself in the terminal area. I think you are wrong on this one.

[busdriver]

I cannot imagine trying to be the RMC in a helo on an opposed CSAR.

How you define this one word is what drives the issue. Low/Medium/High threat?

The primary plan should always be Sandy1 is RMC. But once again, there's all those other taskings: no shit at WEPTAC had Dog tell me that in a scenario we were talking about they'd have 6 Sandy's on alert just for CSAR. 20 minutes later the CFACC tells us, nope the Hogs are doing something else. If that's the reality, every fighter pilot needs to be at least somewhat capable of acting as OSC, more than just whipping out that I-OSC checklist you may have looked at once during ME when a CSAR guy handed it out at mass brief.

[Guest]

As always, it depends.

I had the CFACC tell me he wanted me to chain six jets to the ramp in an undisclosed location to sit alert at the start of OIF. I told him there would never be a moment when we did not have a full-up SANDY 1 and 2 in the air with at least 1/2 tank of gas and I needed jets to generate sorties to support the customers we were working with.

The Boss was very worried about coverage and made it perfectly clear he did not want another Speicher. I gave him my word and he knew I took CSAR seriously.

Ultimately we were able to sit a 4 ship with no spare and at times knock it down to a 2-ship when we had adequate assets and people in the air and needed those jets until mx could catch back up, normally only an hour or two.

As to your point about all the other guys...I would agree, every fighter pilot/crew needs to have some level of SA. The attitude in the Trough was always that we knew we were the best suited to do the mission but the mission was far too important to be "owned" by us alone because we wouldn't always be there. Everyone at Nellis thought they could do CAS but no one wanted to touch the CSAR/RMC mission because it was too difficult and, if tasked, it would eat up too many sorties that were a nightmare to try to schedule training and CT.

All the divisions at Nellis got together and decided the Trough needed to get every student an indoc to RMC. Every division at Nellis got RMC/CSAR academics because they all wanted to learn it, including the Albinos/AWACS/JSTARS/Compass Call. The Mudhens and LGPOS students had a ride or two prior to ME where they would have to set up as OSC+/RMC and get the party started, sometimes all the way to pick-up/egress. It was great for the -60s because they got to train with more than the A-10s and they made contacts in the other communities. Everyone took it seriously.

[OL Patch]

Everyone took it seriously.

Including the Albinos!

[Guest]

Including the Albinos!

Hell yes!

They understood that in a full up opposed scenario they would likely be the first and maybe only ones able to maintain a presence and they would likely be working to save one of their own.

[busdriver]

All the divisions at Nellis got together and decided the Trough needed to get every student an indoc to RMC. ...Everyone took it seriously.

I can't speak to academics, I wasn't there. The only fast movers we flew with were the Mudhens, they acted as OSC while we got ourselves to the IP then took over. What it taught me was that yes I could be the RMC in certain situations that were higher threat than Afghanistan, but I needed the OSC to have an idea of what he was doing(we spent a lot of time in planning talking about things, and they ended up locating the survivor within 200ft without ever getting eyes on, using a mix of CSAR and CAS techniques), and I would make the final call of whether to execute or not. In the end, it won't be pretty, but it can work. As you said, it depends.

Incidentally, it also taught me a lot out about how to teach CSAR to non Sandy guys.

What I found was that anyone who's ass was on the line took CSAR seriously. It wasn't a matter of not caring, more a matter of not knowing. In the future I'd like to see a lot more involvement from the Raptor guys in learning OSC, not sure how reasonable that really is but my gut tells me they have the ability to hang out in the threat even after Winchester let's put them to good use.

[Guest]

In the future I'd like to see a lot more involvement from the Raptor guys in learning OSC, not sure how reasonable that really is but my gut tells me they have the ability to hang out in the threat even after Winchester let's put them to good use.

That is correct. Their ordnance is not what would make them most valuable.

[JSChmed]

I was suggesting you read the CSAR section of the A-10 volume. If you have done that and you still feel like you can accomplish all those things then I am suggesting you may have a reading comprehension issue.

I like the idea that you want to be aggressive and that you are going to try to make the mission happen no matter what.

Just whipping your dick out and saying you can take this on because you are man enough to do so doesn't make practical sense.

You need to spend some time learning about what the RMC actually does. Maybe you can do some FWIC support and watch the A-10 students from start to finish on a mission?

I cannot imagine trying to be the RMC in a helo on an opposed CSAR. There's just no way I could have the SA required to make the RMC calls and complete the RMC tasks if I was in a helo. No way. I'm not saying this because I thinkse helo pilots have no SA. It is because you cannot get the required SA if you are in a helo. It takes several A-10s to do what you want to do with one helo. Clear your mind and think about that for 30 seconds.

This is extremely obvious to me. It appears you have a contrary belief that you can locate, authenticate and protect the survivor, ID threats, control the strikes, RECCE the routes, escort yourself and cover yourself in the terminal area. I think you are wrong on this one.

My reading comprehension is just fine.

I'm not saying I can do the mission just because I think it needs to be done. I'm saying I can do the mission because it's my mission to do and it's completely possible using established TTPs. I'm not making crap up here.

A rescue mission commander doesn't need to personally accomplish all of the tasks you outlined earlier. It would be ideal, but as you pointed out, it's not always possible. The RMC needs to make sure the appropriate tasks are accomplished. So you take a look at the available assets and develop a gameplan based on METT-TC. If you have the chance to do some premission planning, you can develop contracts with the available players and build redundancy into your comm plan to mitigate the LoS issues.

There are a lot of ways to communicate, authenticate, locate and protect the survivor without having Sandy 1 overhead. An H-60 RMC should be familiar with them and use them to get the information they need. The AF has assets that can recce a route if Sandy 3 is a no show. The H-60 has equipment to get information from those assets. It's completely possible that the H-60 could know the location of the threats and the objective before any other player. I'd even argue that depending on threat, that way might even be more effective / tactically sound.

With a FAC(A) over the objective and a couple of Apaches as rescort, the mission would go fine.

I think we think of each other in a similar light: "nice to have them if they're there because they train to this mission and it will go a lot smoother, but this thing is kicking off regardless so we'll make do with what we have." You guys would prefer Jolly (I hope), but any "RV" will be fine. I'd prefer a Sandy, but I'll make it work with the available players.

[Guest]

My reading comprehension is just fine. Blah blah blah...With a FAC(A) over the objective and a couple of Apaches as rescort, the mission would go fine...blah blah blah

Noted. Reading comprehension is just fine.

That means you comprehend the difference between "hacking the mission with whatever assets are available" and being RMC capable and qualified to run an opposed CSAR.

I would normally say if comprehension is fine then it must be an SA issue. However, you have discovered an elegant solution to what so many have always believed is a very complex problem to solve and mission to fly, one that has been the better of some of the best A-1/A-10 pilots in history. Who knew?

So, I stand corrected.

I will call Shark and Johhny Bravo today and let them know they should delete a phase of the syllabus. Hog schedulers and training officers around the world will rejoice. So will OG/CCs, FS/CCs and DOs who have to deal with the problem of having to put their most qualified pilots on alert. I can see the MXG/CCs jump for joy when they no longer have to chain code 1 jets to the ramp on alert. High risk of capture aircrew will sleep soundly for the first time in history because they know if they are shot down the CSAR "mission will go just fine."

FWIW, would you mind letting me know how you feel about this after you have some experience and perspective from both platforms?

[JSChmed]

Noted. Reading comprehension is just fine.

That means you comprehend the difference between "hacking the mission with whatever assets are available" and being RMC capable and qualified to run an opposed CSAR.

I would normally say if comprehension is fine then it must be an SA issue. However, you have discovered an elegant solution to what so many have always believed is a very complex problem to solve and mission to fly, one that has been the better of some of the best A-1/A-10 pilots in history. Who knew?

So, I stand corrected.

I will call Shark and Johhny Bravo today and let them know they should delete a phase of the syllabus. Hog schedulers and training officers around the world will rejoice. So will OG/CCs, FS/CCs and DOs who have to deal with the problem of having to put their most qualified pilots on alert. I can see the MXG/CCs jump for joy when they no longer have to chain code 1 jets to the ramp on alert. High risk of capture aircrew will sleep soundly for the first time in history because they know if they are shot down the CSAR "mission will go just fine."

FWIW, would you mind letting me know how you feel about this after you have some experience and perspective from both platforms?

Wow. Not sure why it's a personal affront to you to suggest that an H-60 flight lead would be able to accomplish the mission. I'm not taking anything away from you. I'm just saying there's another way of doing it. So much for "Teach, Lead, Follow." I actually thought we might get something out of this conversation.

By the way sir, please don't think for a minute that your flying around the missile fields in a Huey somehow constitutes a "perspective from both platforms." That's like me claiming I have perspective of what it's like to fly an A-10 because I went cross country in a tweet.

[Guest]

Not sure why it's a personal affront to you to suggest that an H-60 flight lead would be able to accomplish the mission.

Don't confuse my contrary opinion about the ability of any H-60 flight lead to be a full up RMC in an opposed CASR as a response to personal affront from you. Rest assured, you have not offended me in any way whatsoever.

This is definitely not a SANDY vs JOLLY issue for me. I am fired up that you are fired up about being full up. My friends downrange are counting on you to have that attitude.

I actually thought we might get something out of this conversation.

I thought we might, too. However, there is no way for me to share my point of view without offending you. Anything I say will only seem to you like I think you are not good enough or capable enough.

Your perspective on what an RMC does is, no offense intended, almost childlike. Trying to "Teach, Lead, Follow" over the internet as to why you are not quite right is a bridge too far for me. I'm sorry, I'm not that good.

That's like me claiming I have perspective of what it's like to fly an A-10 because I went cross country in a tweet.

LOL...I think you might be missing a couple things about my perspective and experience but your attempted call out is funny nonetheless. it is the internet after all.

I'll admit to being at a disadvantage since I know nothing of your perspective since I've never even fucking heard of you and I really meant it when I said this isn't about measuring dicks for me. You win that one by nature of what you do everyday. I have paid nothing but proper respect to JOLLY pilots on these boards and I'm not going to change that now. The JOLLY guys I flew with know where I'm coming from.

So, :beer:s are on me if we ever get the chance to meet...perhaps at a Jolly Green or Society of Combat Search and Rescue reunion, that is if you're not too full up or too cool to go to those events and listen to what the guys before you did.

FWIW, I would be happy to set something up at one of these events for you to brief your plan to change the way CSAR should be done. They will be impressed by what you have to say, I'm sure of that. Let me know if you're interested and I'll make it happen.

Cheers!

[busdriver]

I see where you're coming from JCS, but I don't think us being RMC as a go to plan is really very good. A lot of issues have to be mitigated primarily comm and we all know how awesome comm always is, yes it can be done but it probably won't be pretty. The unfortunate thing is that given ops tempo and training lines available, none of the other fighters have the capability to pick up a full up Sandy1 program.

"Making it happen with available assets" as Rainman put it is more what I'm talking about. Basically we've got a full up Sandy1-4 as primary plan, Sandy1-2 with someone else to escort as alternate plan, and if Sandy's drop out altogether, spread out those duties amongst other players and train for the contingency plan. Jolly as "RMC" is really that contingency plan, I think we should train guys to that level and I know full well it'll be ugly but we have to have a capability to get guys home no matter what and ultimately it'll make us better at our primary role as RV. I'm sure Rainman can tell you the difference between having an RV that needs to be led around by the dick versus one that knows how to help the RMC/ has high SA and knows when it's appropriate to take tac lead and when he needs to STFU and let Sandy1 think.

The other piece is the opposed CSAR line he keeps throwing out, there is no way in hell I want to be RMC if I'm no kidding penetrating an IADS MEZ at 50' the whole way or have an extensive conventional ground threat. Afghanistan is a different animal, but I'd still prefer to have some trained to be OSC overhead start working the objective before I get there.

[slackline]

I see where you're coming from JCS, but I don't think us being RMC as a go to plan is really very good. A lot of issues have to be mitigated primarily comm and we all know how awesome comm always is, yes it can be done but it probably won't be pretty. The unfortunate thing is that given ops tempo and training lines available, none of the other fighters have the capability to pick up a full up Sandy1 program.

"Making it happen with available assets" as Rainman put it is more what I'm talking about. Basically we've got a full up Sandy1-4 as primary plan, Sandy1-2 with someone else to escort as alternate plan, and if Sandy's drop out altogether, spread out those duties amongst other players and train for the contingency plan. Jolly as "RMC" is really that contingency plan, I think we should train guys to that level and I know full well it'll be ugly but we have to have a capability to get guys home no matter what and ultimately it'll make us better at our primary role as RV. I'm sure Rainman can tell you the difference between having an RV that needs to be led around by the dick versus one that knows how to help the RMC/ has high SA and knows when it's appropriate to take tac lead and when he needs to STFU and let Sandy1 think.

The other piece is the opposed CSAR line he keeps throwing out, there is no way in hell I want to be RMC if I'm no kidding penetrating an IADS MEZ at 50' the whole way or have an extensive conventional ground threat. Afghanistan is a different animal, but I'd still prefer to have some trained to be OSC overhead start working the objective before I get there.

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