Drone Pilots: We Don’t Get No Respect

[viper154]

48 minutes ago, mikezulu2016 said:

Figured as much. Going to be a rough times ahead...I just made it to RND and won't hit IFT until apr-jun next year. Pipeline is so jacked right now. 

i would expect it will go back to the levels of two years ago. It has actually gotten better the last 12 months or so, granted lots of young new guys but you gotta take what you can get, currently in the calm before the storm. I think the expansion of the 18x pipeline and expulsion of the 11s is the best thing for the community. For to long RPAs were a dumping ground for bad apples on the 11 side, or a place good 11s were forced to and became jaded. RPAs are a unique/developing enterprise, pulling manned guys initially made sense, but the AF needs to take the time/money to keep the 18s around to lead the force and develop the community. 

 

Hang in there, learn what you can from your casual job, make friends with the dudes in the current classes and get gouge. I waited 8 months after I commissioned to go on AD, and another 7 months casual at UPT waiting for my class dates. Sucked at the time, but as a exec assistant I learned a shit ton about the inner workings of how a flying squadron functions, and how to make the queep magic happen, helped a million times over when I showed up at my first ops unit. 

[herkbum]

Thread revival:

 

https://warontherocks.com/2018/01/forever-deployed-combat-dwell-reform-mq-9-crews-beyond-overdue/

[VigilanteNav]

Herkbum, I take it you are former Herk Driver turned RPA Driver?  I'm a former Herk Nav turned ROTC Det CC and we just sent three new Lts to the RPA pipeline so I'm interested in the prospects for them.  In reading the article you posted I thought of the old stories of the usage of Herks in the Desert.  Remember taking a pallet of Stars and Stripes (or insert other very useful item here) from point A to point B only to have another Herk take that same pallet from point B back to point A.  All in the name of ensuring the Combatant CC didn't lose any of their current assets due to lack of mission reqs.   Any of this going on in the RPA world in the AOR....or, are all the missions very legit and required at this ops tempo?   I have no knowledge of what is actual going on over there in this world so just throwing out the question. 

[herkbum]

4 hours ago, VigilanteNav said:

Herkbum, I take it you are former Herk Driver turned RPA Driver?  I'm a former Herk Nav turned ROTC Det CC and we just sent three new Lts to the RPA pipeline so I'm interested in the prospects for them.  In reading the article you posted I thought of the old stories of the usage of Herks in the Desert.  Remember taking a pallet of Stars and Stripes (or insert other very useful item here) from point A to point B only to have another Herk take that same pallet from point B back to point A.  All in the name of ensuring the Combatant CC didn't lose any of their current assets due to lack of mission reqs.   Any of this going on in the RPA world in the AOR....or, are all the missions very legit and required at this ops tempo?   I have no knowledge of what is actual going on over there in this world so just throwing out the question. 

The missions I know about are legit and  I do remember the days of moving stuff around, but RPA is different.

After reading this article this morning, my kids were watching Disney’s Planes. There’s a line in the movie where Dusty is arguing with Skipper about how he’s a crop duster-he’s flown thousands of miles but he has never been anywhere. All I could think of are these young 18Xs that will never get to go anywhere. I couldn’t imagine 20 yrs of this, and in constant combat ops. 

PM me if you want to talk

Edited January 27, 2018 by herkbum

[nsplayr]

9 hours ago, herkbum said:

Thread revival:

 

https://warontherocks.com/2018/01/forever-deployed-combat-dwell-reform-mq-9-crews-beyond-overdue/

The author is a friend of mine. Good dude, very legit. Glad to see him published. 

[Clark Griswold]

On 12/3/2017 at 2:02 AM, viper154 said:

1 out of 8. And that one is a prior with 4 years until retirement. The consensus is similar to that on the manned side, 25-35g a year bonus is nothing when contracting drone jobs are paying anywhere from $100,000 - $400,000 a year depending on what your quals are. All us Alpha tour guys are going back manned, no one is willing to recat and sacrifice manned time for airline apps 

Good Lord that's low...

Good article but beyond allocating more resources and using them logically rather than politically (people, perks and bases in desirable locales with timezone distribution versus some wasteland of a congressional district) what else could fix this?

 

[tac airlifter]

11 hours ago, nsplayr said:

The author is a friend of mine. Good dude, very legit. Glad to see him published. 

Concur!  

[VigilanteNav]

11 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

Good Lord that's low...

Good article but beyond allocating more resources and using them logically rather than politically (people, perks and bases in desirable locales with timezone distribution versus some wasteland of a congressional district) what else could fix this?

 

Seems to me that if you concur that there is really no solution (that is actually going to be executed beyond what the current "get well plan" see below) on the capes side then you have to lower the commitments side.     

https://www.c4isrnet.com/unmanned/uas/2017/06/06/air-force-rpa-get-well-plan-on-track/

So, CSAF needs to say the AF can only do 55 CAPs (pick a number lower than 60) and other entities need to pick up more if the total commitments cannot be lowered?  As far as the other entities are concerned, is any other partner country getting into the RPA (with strike capes) biz?  Canada, UK? (I am not a RPA bubba so just throwing my outside view 2 cents in) 

[Clark Griswold]

Seems to me that if you concur that there is really no solution (that is actually going to be executed beyond what the current "get well plan" see below) on the capes side then you have to lower the commitments side.     

https://www.c4isrnet.com/unmanned/uas/2017/06/06/air-force-rpa-get-well-plan-on-track/

So, CSAF needs to say the AF can only do 55 CAPs (pick a number lower than 60) and other entities need to pick up more if the total commitments cannot be lowered?  As far as the other entities are concerned, is any other partner country getting into the RPA (with strike capes) biz?  Canada, UK? (I am not a RPA bubba so just throwing my outside view 2 cents in) 

Yeah I do think that absent a growth in resources and the authority to execute them wisely that a reduction in CAPs to execute the resources allocated now thus allowing for some margin for QoL and development of the community is the best long term COA but I doubt that the AF would either lower its force contribution beyond 60 CAPs or would be allowed to.

 

The get-well plan sounds fine but to narrow in on the 10-1 crew to CAP ratio you have to put an asterisk and notes with that. Not all of those 10 aviators are crew dogs flying the line, just drawing on my experience in an RPA squadron from years past if you took a sample of 10 pilots from the squadron probably 5 were company grade crew dogs and the other 5 were field graders that flew occasionally as they had other duties that sometimes legitimately precluded scheduling them and sometimes RHIP.

 

My point being is the devil is in the details and that if the AF really wants this to not be a morale and retention killing assignment(s) then it must acknowledge and program for it.

 

As for other nations picking up some of the slack I doubt it, the political will / balls to conduct the precision HVI / signature strike mission is just not there. No one in the West wants to publicly admit that we are attempting to kill our way out of these COIN missions just not indiscriminately. Not saying that is a good or bad tactic but it does not have a noble ring to it hence the politicians keeping their distance from it if they can.

 

Don’t mean to be all negative but just my honest opinion. If I were king for a day i would:

- program 50k per year bonuses for volunteers

- establish a companion trainer aircraft program

- establish a sensor / JTAC to warrant officer 18X program

- establish 10 new RPA ops centers on bases across US territory for QoL across time zones and I would CLOSE Creech to RPA ops

- establish a policy that states any rated officer in an RPA wing holding a qualification in the primary MWS of that Wing must remain maintain within 80% of the average flight hours per pilot per month to receive flight pay or ACIP

 

Fat chance on all of those but advocate wherever you can for what you think is right

[viper154]

1 hour ago, Clark Griswold said:

Yeah I do think that absent a growth in resources and the authority to execute them wisely that a reduction in CAPs to execute the resources allocated now thus allowing for some margin for QoL and development of the community is the best long term COA but I doubt that the AF would either lower its force contribution beyond 60 CAPs or would be allowed to.

 

The get-well plan sounds fine but to narrow in on the 10-1 crew to CAP ratio you have to put an asterisk and notes with that. Not all of those 10 aviators are crew dogs flying the line, just drawing on my experience in an RPA squadron from years past if you took a sample of 10 pilots from the squadron probably 5 were company grade crew dogs and the other 5 were field graders that flew occasionally as they had other duties that sometimes legitimately precluded scheduling them and sometimes RHIP.

 

My point being is the devil is in the details and that if the AF really wants this to not be a morale and retention killing assignment(s) then it must acknowledge and program for it.

 

As for other nations picking up some of the slack I doubt it, the political will / balls to conduct the precision HVI / signature strike mission is just not there. No one in the West wants to publicly admit that we are attempting to kill our way out of these COIN missions just not indiscriminately. Not saying that is a good or bad tactic but it does not have a noble ring to it hence the politicians keeping their distance from it if they can.

 

Don’t mean to be all negative but just my honest opinion. If I were king for a day i would:

- program 50k per year bonuses for volunteers

- establish a companion trainer aircraft program

- establish a sensor / JTAC to warrant officer 18X program

- establish 10 new RPA ops centers on bases across US territory for QoL across time zones and I would CLOSE Creech to RPA ops

- establish a policy that states any rated officer in an RPA wing holding a qualification in the primary MWS of that Wing must remain maintain within 80% of the average flight hours per pilot per month to receive flight pay or ACIP

 

Fat chance on all of those but advocate wherever you can for what you think is right

I think the best approach would be to go to the dwell ratio that’s been thrown around. 2 months flying the line, 2 months off. 

Companion trainer that’s cheap for when your on dwell, DA-20, C172, nothing crazy, but make this job fun, instead of just exhausting flying the line non stop. 

 

Leadership. I’ve been doing this a few years as a AFSOC guy, and have worked with ACC several times on TDYs, schools, and deployments. RPAs need to separate out from ACC, they will always be the red headed step child, and toxic leaders from the squadron level on up plague the community. Not saying AFSOC has everything right but at the command level leadership understands the battlefield importantance the MQ assets, their streanghts and weakness,  and are more invested in the constant improvement and upgrade process. 

Bonus-agree, 50k at least. 

 

Locations, ya we need more, but they are working on it. Willing to take what we can get, Shaw, Tyndal, and maybe Hurlby. 

 

Brits have a pretty good MQ-9 program flying in theater with us, doubt anyone is going to contribute any more though. 

 

Rumor is is they are standing up a enlisted aviator cross training program so some the enlisted aviation positions can crossflow fairly easily between each other. Keep pressing with this program. 

[Clark Griswold]

3 hours ago, viper154 said:

I think the best approach would be to go to the dwell ratio that’s been thrown around. 2 months flying the line, 2 months off. 

Companion trainer that’s cheap for when your on dwell, DA-20, C172, nothing crazy, but make this job fun, instead of just exhausting flying the line non stop. 

Leadership. I’ve been doing this a few years as a AFSOC guy, and have worked with ACC several times on TDYs, schools, and deployments. RPAs need to separate out from ACC, they will always be the red headed step child, and toxic leaders from the squadron level on up plague the community. Not saying AFSOC has everything right but at the command level leadership understands the battlefield importantance the MQ assets, their streanghts and weakness,  and are more invested in the constant improvement and upgrade process. 

Bonus-agree, 50k at least. 

Locations, ya we need more, but they are working on it. Willing to take what we can get, Shaw, Tyndal, and maybe Hurlby. 

Brits have a pretty good MQ-9 program flying in theater with us, doubt anyone is going to contribute any more though. 

Rumor is is they are standing up a enlisted aviator cross training program so some the enlisted aviation positions can crossflow fairly easily between each other. Keep pressing with this program. 

Copy that.  

Another fix that really would be the thing that could actually cause the others is IMO that the RPA community needs a home of its own for its core function/mission of Global Integrated ISR, resurrect AF Intelligence Command and give them the top cover of their own 4 star.  It's a large enough core function/mission that it has out grown ACC and is sufficiently different that it needs its own dedicated leadership and MAJCOM.

[HU&W]

On 1/28/2018 at 10:56 AM, viper154 said:

dwell 

Companion trainer 

Leadership.

Excellent points.  My list for sustainability aligns pretty closely, but with some amplifying points, in priority order...

1.  Dwell.  And it needs to be implemented yesterday.  If there were 1000 F-16 pilots and 1000 F-16s, the AF would balk at a COCOM request for 1000 tails.  The same should be true for maxing CAPs.  Dwell doesn't need to be 2:1 or even 1:1.  Make it 1:2 (programmed) like everyone else.  Dwell needs to be by squadron.  An entire squadron should spend four months preparing to fight a specific 5-6 CAPs for two months,  and then hand the fight over to another squadron to prepare again.  That's three squadrons sharing each CAP, three 6-CAP squadrons for every 6 CAPs, etc.  There are not enough squadrons today to do that, so we should cut CAPs today.  If we really need 60+ to survive/win our various wars, build enough squadrons to support that.  "Because we're used to that many" isn't sufficient justification.

2.  One daddy rabbit.  MQ-9s shouldn't be split between two different MAJCOMs with two different priority sets.  Having a bit of experience in both, my opinion is that the better strategic alignment for the MQ-9 is the MAJCOM that has the preponderance of other M-designated aircraft.  If AFSOC does take over, yes that means Creech should be the third AFSOC base, and it should have all the BOS a normal base gets.  Regardless, no major base should be the tenant of a host wing that's over an hour away.

3.  Stop managing the manpower, policy, and systems as "RPAs".  It's literally the only aircraft that's categorized according to its cockpit design.  The only similarity between the MQ-9 and the RQ-4 is that the fly-by-wire goes through a satellite datalink.  They are no more similar than a C-17 and F-15 that both have glass cockpits.

4.  Companion (alpha) trainers are a great idea, but only during dwell, not combat.  We need to be building airmanship for our 18x pilots beyond the 39 hours they get during IFS.  I like the Cirrus SR22s the academy uses due to the minimal life support requirement.  

Edited January 29, 2018 by HU&W

[Chaff]

On 1/28/2018 at 12:15 PM, Clark Griswold said:

Copy that.  

Another fix that really would be the thing that could actually cause the others is IMO that the RPA community needs a home of its own for its core function/mission of Global Integrated ISR, resurrect AF Intelligence Command and give them the top cover of their own 4 star.  It's a large enough core function/mission that it has out grown ACC and is sufficiently different that it needs its own dedicated leadership and MAJCOM.

I think the flexibility of the platform is already extremely limited by

1) The 2 holding so much of the power

2) All Combat lines being chopped to specific units by the COCOM because the CFACC doesn't have / doesn't exercise that authority

I'm pretty sure, at least for the MQ-9 side of the house, the preference would be to work more for the 3 and not be lumped into an Intelligence Command. I realize that we don't belong 100% in the 3 realm, but I think giving the 3 more authority over the MQ-9 than it has now is a better answer. 

 

[Clark Griswold]

23 hours ago, Chaff said:

I think the flexibility of the platform is already extremely limited by

1) The 2 holding so much of the power

2) All Combat lines being chopped to specific units by the COCOM because the CFACC doesn't have / doesn't exercise that authority

I'm pretty sure, at least for the MQ-9 side of the house, the preference would be to work more for the 3 and not be lumped into an Intelligence Command. I realize that we don't belong 100% in the 3 realm, but I think giving the 3 more authority over the MQ-9 than it has now is a better answer. 

Yeah, it's an interesting situation, my RPA experience is the Global Chicken, very different from the Reaper world so I am thinking from an outsider perspective looking in.  

A resurrected AF Intelligence Command would really need to be Air ISR Operations Command (or something) and keep the emphasis on the process to gather the intelligence / action on it not the PED of it.  

Too many functions/missions in ACC, can't legitimately balance them all out under one roof.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Clark Griswold

[17D_guy]

21 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

Yeah, it's an interesting situation, my RPA experience is the Global Chicken, very different from the Reaper world so I am thinking from an outsider perspective looking in.  

A resurrected AF Intelligence Command would really need to be Air ISR Operations Command (or something) and keep the emphasis on the process to gather the intelligence / action on it not the PED of it.  

Too many functions/missions in ACC, can't legitimately balance them all out under one roof.

Still rumors of a Global Vigilance command w/ 24AF and 25AF merging.  

Last RUMINT had 24AF leaving AFSPC this Spring (May/Apr) to join the nirvana of ACC...where we can be further ignored.

[Clark Griswold]

53 minutes ago, 17D_guy said:

Still rumors of a Global Vigilance command w/ 24AF and 25AF merging.  

Last RUMINT had 24AF leaving AFSPC this Spring (May/Apr) to join the nirvana of ACC...where we can be further ignored.

AF Global Vigilance Command... sounds right.

Sending 24AF to ACC... sounds terrible.

 

[FourFans]

5 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

AF Global Vigilance Command... sounds right.

Can they call it Ministry of Vigilance so we can be more Orwellian about it?

[17D_guy]

19 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

Sending 24AF to ACC... sounds terrible.

We're rather excited about it actually.

[Clark Griswold]

17 hours ago, FourFans130 said:

Can they call it Ministry of Vigilance so we can be more Orwellian about it?

MAJCOM patch

4 hours ago, 17D_guy said:

We're rather excited about it actually.

Really?  Thought Cyber was happy in AFSPC but if y'all are good with it, cool.

[17D_guy]

17 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

Really?  Thought Cyber was happy in AFSPC but if y'all are good with it, cool.

I'm honestly not sure how to respond to this... I'm just one person, with a limited view of FGO-ish down.  But...no, we're not happy with them.  We're not even red headed step children under them. 

We literally get no thought about mission critical systems or warfighting needs until it's 1100 on a Saturday and the tasker is due to HAF 1200 on Monday.  That's not an exaggeration. 

Do you like the way the network is now? That's because AFSPC wouldn't fund anything to fix it until basically every 4-star sent a "WTF note" about their email being down for more than a day.  Then they pushed this cloud email imitative (which is great) without thinking about the strain on bandwidth at the migrated bases, or supporting infrastructure.

Are you basing this off the glad-handing, grandstanding of GO's and Col's at official functions/Legislative interviews? The space folks they put in charge of 24AF were so very not good.  There are almost no policies left from them that we follow, and what we're forced to we actively hate.  The Holiday Party had open jokes about us getting our own MAJCOM, and when the announcement came down about moving people actually clapped.

Hey... does the guy that leads us even wear our badge over a year after taking command? 
https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/108479/general-john-w-jay-raymond/

Merging w/ the 25th I'm a little more worried about.  SAF/CIO's a Intel dude by trade (seems like a good dude), so the winds don't look good for someone that's actually a Cyber dude/chick to get the reins anytime soon.  Intel's not Ops no matter how much they wish it was so.

[Clark Griswold]

I'm honestly not sure how to respond to this... I'm just one person, with a limited view of FGO-ish down.  But...no, we're not happy with them.  We're not even red headed step children under them. 

We literally get no thought about mission critical systems or warfighting needs until it's 1100 on a Saturday and the tasker is due to HAF 1200 on Monday.  That's not an exaggeration. 

Do you like the way the network is now? That's because AFSPC wouldn't fund anything to fix it until basically every 4-star sent a "WTF note" about their email being down for more than a day.  Then they pushed this cloud email imitative (which is great) without thinking about the strain on bandwidth at the migrated bases, or supporting infrastructure.

Are you basing this off the glad-handing, grandstanding of GO's and Col's at official functions/Legislative interviews? The space folks they put in charge of 24AF were so very not good.  There are almost no policies left from them that we follow, and what we're forced to we actively hate.  The Holiday Party had open jokes about us getting our own MAJCOM, and when the announcement came down about moving people actually clapped.

Hey... does the guy that leads us even wear our badge over a year after taking command? 

https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/108479/general-john-w-jay-raymond/

Merging w/ the 25th I'm a little more worried about.  SAF/CIO's a Intel dude by trade (seems like a good dude), so the winds don't look good for someone that's actually a Cyber dude/chick to get the reins anytime soon.  Intel's not Ops no matter how much they wish it was so.

 

Crap - pardon my ignorance

[Guardian]

MQ1 & 9 should not be controlled by anything labeled ISR. Yes they collect information and have a pod for video. That’s second to their ability to kill people. Think the A10s should be under ISR? No. But they collect info and can broadcast it out. Dumb idea.

[Clark Griswold]

MQ1 & 9 should not be controlled by anything labeled ISR. Yes they collect information and have a pod for video. That’s second to their ability to kill people. Think the A10s should be under ISR? No. But they collect info and can broadcast it out. Dumb idea.

But they collect the intel to know whom to strike, that’s the primary tactical problem to be solved for the strategy leadership currently prefers. Not saying that strategy is good, bad, effective or wise just what we do and why.

Any number of assets can deliver a PGM, very few can deliver a weapon after the exhaustive collection and target discrimination our ROE requires.

Make droids primarily an X-CAS platform and what they bring to the fight rapidly diminishes.

[zach braff]

6 hours ago, Clark Griswold said:

 

Crap - pardon my ignorance

No worries - but as a comm dude I'll second 17D guy... AFSPC sucks.  The network and cyber stuff will be much better with ACC.

[panchbarnes]

10 hours ago, 17D_guy said:

  Intel's not Ops no matter how much they wish it was so.