Low Levels in Colorado

[Swanee]

Gents-

I'm putting together a T-45 low level CCX in a couple of weeks- thinking about heading to Denver. Does anyone have an experience with the VR/IR routes around there? Are any of them any good or is there somewhere else I should look?

I wish I could get up to Whidbey and fly the 1355, but I don't think I have enough legs to get up there. And I want to stay away from southern AZ and CA because everyone goes there and I want to do something different.

Thanks for the help!

[mp5g]

Screw Denver. Pueblo's where it's at.

[Ramathorn]

Screw Denver. Pueblo's where it's at.

The asshole of Colorado.

[HuggyU2]

Swanee,

For T-45 ops, how low does the Navy allow you to go on MTR's? And how fast?

If you're just flying VFR (not on an MTR), what are the Navy's altitude and speed restrictions?

Depending on how restrictive the Navy is, you may be better off just building your own VFR LLNAV leg.

[magnetfreezer]

If you want to head a little north IR499 is a decent trip through the mountains - exits near Jackson Hole as well.

[Guest]

LATN, if you're man enough.

[sputnik]

There's a LATN in CO?

I spent a lot of time VFR between Grand Junction and C Springs in the Tweet. Beautiful country

[matmacwc]

And stay away from the -Springs, unless you don't want your wings.

[Danger41]

Do a heritage flyby

https://69.199.231.171/wiki/index.php/Supersonic_F-105_Flyby

[sky_king]

IR-137 between Santa Fe and Pueblo is pretty cool. I flew it a few times in a T-6. There's a pretty cool canyon about halfway through.

edit: Disregard. If I remember correctly, it may be turboprop only.

Edited May 13, 2012 by sky_king

[sputnik]

And stay away from the -Springs, unless you don't want your wings.

You talking about that 105 story or something else?

I will say, coming back here has been a disapointment from a flyby point of view. The football game flybys are embarrassing, I almost wish they wouldn't do any at all.

[Guest]

There's a LATN in CO?

Yes. 104,100 squares miles of of it.

[HuggyU2]

If I remember correctly, it may be turboprop only.

If so, it's probably an SR route.

I will say, coming back here has been a disapointment from a flyby point of view. The football game flybys are embarrassing, I almost wish they wouldn't do any at all.

Agreed. All of the effort it takes to get the requests, brief the leadership on details worthy of a nuclear strike,... and then be 1000' above the tallest stadium light,... which puts the aircraft about 1300'+ above the field, in a level pass...

It's just lame and embarrassing. Especially when my civilian friends see me and say "why were y'all so high up?".

And the guys that decide to fly it at 300'-500' will do it one time. And it may well end up being their fini flight.

It was only a few years ago when we had a guy to a flyby over a Sacramento AAA baseball game. A 4-star was the guest of honor and on the mic. Said flyover pilot was low, doing about 450+, at night, and when he arrived he pulled it into the vertical with the cans lit up. Needless to say, the crowd went nuts... and the 4-star loved it. Nothing was said. No repercussions.

Those days are gone.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Huggyu2

[sky_king]

If so, it's probably an SR route.

Nope

Edited May 13, 2012 by sky_king

[AZwildcat]

Just be careful when you're exiting those IR routes up there, typically you can't get a hold of center until you've climbed a few thousand feet but they get pissy if you do so with out talking to them (technically you're only cleared up to the highest altitude of the last low level leg). It's a catch 22, so just squawk 1200 and climb to a VFR altitude until you can get a hold of them. Also, filing can be a bitch if you're taking off from a civilian field. Center also whines if you don't have entry/exit times on your flight plan and Duats won't accept them and weather brief won't put them in for you either. At least that was our experience. SR or VR routes are no biggie. Still a blast. Enjoy.

[Day Man]

1. Transponder- OFF

2. Low level everywhere

3. ???

4. Profit

[HuggyU2]

Skyking, Thanks for tracking it down. I'd never seen a restriction like that before.

Swanee: are you going to reply to anyone here? After all, you DID ask for some answers.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Huggyu2

[Murph]

Does CO still have LATN still?

I know Cannon's trying to work LATN for the CV-22s in NM and CO--hasn't been approved though, yet.

Once it is, should be great for training.

[Swanee]

Sorry, went away for the day yesterday, just got back to some internet.

Swanee,

For T-45 ops, how low does the Navy allow you to go on MTR's? And how fast?

If you're just flying VFR (not on an MTR), what are the Navy's altitude and speed restrictions?

Depending on how restrictive the Navy is, you may be better off just building your own VFR LLNAV leg.

CNATRA limits us to 500'AGL, OPNAV 3710 says 200'AGL and we fly 360 knots true. Unfortunately we need to be on a VR or IR route. I'd like to throw the below 10k below 250 and go anywhere, but the Man won't let us. Our NATOPS isn't like the Hornet NATOPS that lets them fly faster than 250 below 10k because of line of sight over the nose issues.

LATN, if you're man enough.

My old man tells me stories about the glory days in the 70s and 80s flying A-37s and A-10s doing the LATN thing. Alas, not everyone can be so cool.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Swanee

[youngpj]

Centennial airport (KAPA) is south of Denver proper and has a lot going on...good access to the mountains, etc.

[Swanee]

Centennial airport (KAPA) is south of Denver proper and has a lot going on...good access to the mountains, etc.

Yeah, access isn't the issue- it's the VR/IR routes that I have to follow. I Just want to know if there are any in the area that are really cool that aren't restricted to only Turboweenies and Devil's Whirlybirds. Or if not, Anyone else have some recommendations (besides LATN) other than Whidbey and PHX/Yuma/El Centro? I've got 5 low level legs and 2 log legs (trying to get 4).. So I'm figuring one log to get me out of South Texas. ONAV from there, then one log to get me back to Kingsville from the edge of Texas. If I can get 4 then I'm headed up to Whidbey as I can get to SLC from Krock in 2 hops.

Thanks for the heads up on 137. There is also one that goes over the Sangre De Cristo mountains, Through Eagle Nest, across Bobcat Pass and Angel Fire. Word is that it was an old F-111 VR route. When I was a kid the old man and I would watch them fly over. Would be sweet to do that run. But apparently a base commander doesn't want us Navy/Marine folk using his route (he denied a buddy here who tried to schedule it last week). Bummer.

[HuggyU2]

I cannot remember the last time I actually "scheduled" the use of an MTR.

See and avoid.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Huggyu2

[brabus]

Just be careful when you're exiting those IR routes up there, typically you can't get a hold of center until you've climbed a few thousand feet but they get pissy if you do so with out talking to them (technically you're only cleared up to the highest altitude of the last low level leg). It's a catch 22, so just squawk 1200 and climb to a VFR altitude until you can get a hold of them. Also, filing can be a bitch if you're taking off from a civilian field. Center also whines if you don't have entry/exit times on your flight plan and Duats won't accept them and weather brief won't put them in for you either

Perfect reason for LATN. VFR+1200+avoid some specific airspace...don't let the man hold you down! Thank God for none of this bullshit in Asia...I hate the FAA.

[Swanee]

I cannot remember the time I actually "scheduled" the use of an MTR.

See and avoid.

Seems like scheduling routes is a PITA so far. So I take it that it's fairly common in the AF world to do the LATN thing and skip the MTRs all together? That would be pretty awesome.

[AZwildcat]

Perfect reason for LATN. VFR+1200+avoid some specific airspace...don't let the man hold you down! Thank God for none of this bullshit in Asia...I hate the FAA.

I know right...I try that trick at Laughlin now and then, they still find me and give me vectors.

Seems like scheduling routes is a PITA so far. So I take it that it's fairly common in the AF world to do the LATN thing and skip the MTRs all together? That would be pretty awesome.

Especially if you're a Randolph training squadron...I've seen 4 T-1s flying circles over one another because nobody signed out a f^ckin' entry time. That's funny to watch.