Low Levels in Colorado

[brabus]

I try that trick at Laughlin now and then, they still find me and give me vectors.

Uhh, you're VFR...unless it's in Class B or something just tell them to fuck off (in better terms of course). Unless of course you've accepted TRSA, but then that's your own damn fault.

Swanee - If you're going to fly a MTR, especially one that's highly used, I would schedule it to avoid potentially dangerous situations. Or if you don't have it scheduled, then have SA on when it is scheduled (you can even potentially get that info via radio from an aprch control, range control, etc.) or otherwise do some LATN work that avoids the confines of the MTR.

[Guest]

I know right...I try that trick at Laughlin now and then, they still find me and give me vectors.

Uhh, you're VFR...

Shack.

Bernoulli, not Marconi, is what makes airplanes fly

[Swanee]

Uhh, you're VFR...unless it's in Class B or something just tell them to ###### off (in better terms of course). Unless of course you've accepted TRSA, but then that's your own damn fault.

Swanee - If you're going to fly a MTR, especially one that's highly used, I would schedule it to avoid potentially dangerous situations. Or if you don't have it scheduled, then have SA on when it is scheduled (you can even potentially get that info via radio from an aprch control, range control, etc.) or otherwise do some LATN work that avoids the confines of the MTR.

Actually it is the opposite- call the numbers in AP1/B to schedule the route and the people you talk to have almost no clue what you're talking about. Ask if a range is going to be hot that the MTR leads to and you also get the stupid puppy look.

We don't get to do LATN stuff in the training command. We have to fly existing VR/IR routes and we have to be scheduled. Doesn't mean that we can't share a scheduled time and coordinate with another unit MARSA.

[brabus]

WTF...maybe the numbers in AP1/B are going to Base Ops? Whichever base is the scheduling agency for the route, find a number to wing scheduling at the OSS and call them. They will know what you're talking about. Wing scheduling should also have SA, or at least be able to point you to the right person, regarding range availability in their area.

[AZwildcat]

Uhh, you're VFR...unless it's in Class B or something just tell them to ###### off (in better terms of course). Unless of course you've accepted TRSA, but then that's your own damn fault.

You would think....I've heard some pretty good arguments between approach and people who were supposedly "VFR". Laughlin's just class C but they'll happily vector you and assign you altitudes if they feel like it. Either there's some reg somewhere for local aircraft or nobody's had the balls to tell them to f^ck off. Unless you're a 172, then you can fly right through the heart of the MOA at any altitude you please.

Me - "Cancel IFR"

Approach - "Roger, IFR cancellation received"

69 seconds later....

Approach - "Descend and maintain 5,000, fly heading 160

Me - "F^ck off"

Approach - "Standby...uhhh unable"

[sky_king]

"Suggest, heading 169"

"Nah, I'm good"

[HuggyU2]

You would think....I've heard some pretty good arguments between approach and people who were supposedly "VFR". Laughlin's just class C but they'll happily vector you and assign you altitudes if they feel like it. Either there's some reg somewhere for local aircraft or nobody's had the balls to tell them to f^ck off. Unless you're a 172, then you can fly right through the heart of the MOA at any altitude you please.

Me - "Cancel IFR"

Approach - "Roger, IFR cancellation received"

69 seconds later....

Approach - "Descend and maintain 5,000, fly heading 160

Me - "F^ck off"

Approach - "Standby...uhhh unable"

A couple of problems with your post.

1. You have to be in radio contact in Class C, and you must accept those vectors/altitudes. But its only 10nm in diameter. You don't have to participate outside of it. When I arrived VFR at Laughlin a few trips ago, I got radio contact at about 12 nm from the field, with them acknowledging my callsign. As I blew inside of 10nm, they got audibly agitated. When I landed, I was told to contact the TRACON. Long story short, I dared them to file a violation on me. "Bring it" I told them. They backed off and said they "would let it go this time"

2. When you depart the Class C, call "terminate" and your flight following is done. You can go through the MOA all day long and not talk to a soul. But if you are VFR with flight following, you still have to accept controllers instructions. Don't want to follow them? Ball's in your court.

Caveat: If you have an incident, and you were not getting flight following, expect to have your nuts crushed.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Huggyu2

[Swanee]

You would think....I've heard some pretty good arguments between approach and people who were supposedly "VFR". Laughlin's just class C but they'll happily vector you and assign you altitudes if they feel like it. Either there's some reg somewhere for local aircraft or nobody's had the balls to tell them to f^ck off. Unless you're a 172, then you can fly right through the heart of the MOA at any altitude you please.

Me - "Cancel IFR"

Approach - "Roger, IFR cancellation received"

69 seconds later....

Approach - "Descend and maintain 5,000, fly heading 160

Me - "F^ck off"

Approach - "Standby...uhhh unable"

Wow. Kingsville approach is always more than happy for us to cancel IFR or terminate VFR monitors. In fact they even ask us to most of the time; or they just say something like, " No traffic observed between you and the initial, stop squawk, contact tower, good day."

Edited May 15, 2012 by Swanee

[HuggyU2]

Swanee,

What's the Navy's rules on VFR flight not on an MTR in the T-45?

How low?

How fast?

What else?

[stract]

Unless you're a 172, then you can fly right through the heart of the MOA at any altitude you please.

wrong. the purpose of a MOA is to seperate IFR traffic from non-hazardous military traffic. Joe Schmoe in his C-172 can blaze a VFR trail through your MOA any day of the week, without even talking to anyone, and it's completely legal. And stupid. At least the sectionals include MOA freqs now, so Joe Schmoe can choose to check in if he wants...

[sky_king]

wrong. the purpose of a MOA is to seperate IFR traffic from non-hazardous military traffic. Joe Schmoe in his C-172 can blaze a VFR trail through your MOA any day of the week, without even talking to anyone, and it's completely legal. And stupid. At least the sectionals include MOA freqs now, so Joe Schmoe can choose to check in if he wants...

I think you misinterpreted his sentence structure.

[Guest]

A couple of problems with your post.

1. You have to be in radio contact in Class C, and you must accept those vectors/altitudes. But its only 10nm in diameter. You don't have to participate outside of it.

For clarification...Class C (typically) only goes to 5nm below 1200' and you are clear of it above 4000'. I have held VFR directly above the airfield at 4.5 until they let me descend to initial more than once. I have also held VFR at 5.69 miles below 1200' until they let me go to initial.

Fayetteville tried to violate me six times when I was at Pope. They were 0 for 6.

More than once I have been IFR and refused to accept what the controllers have given me. They have options. Lots of them. They are there to provide a service to me which includes keeping me and everyone else safe (IFR). I make them do what I need (which is never unreasonable) not what is easiest for them. They are sitting down drinking a cup of coffee. I am in the air with three wingmen. I give them plenty of notice. Tie goes to the runner.

More than once I told them what I am doing and the reason I am doing it (must be valid) and then I just did it. My favorite thing to say was "There is absolutely nothing you can say on the radio that is going to make me take my flight anywhere near that thunderstorm. I'm proceeding 169 in the block 20-21 for weather and will let you know when I am able to resume direct my destination." If they are really being pricks I preceed that radio call with "Mark the tapes."

You don't have to be a dick. You just have to be correct.

[sputnik]

We had an issue with Springs approach and it was finally clarified that two way radio contact is established once approach says your callsign. They got really pissed at a couple dudes and the answer was "you said Talon xx, roger," if that's all you have to say I'm going to do what I want.

[Guest]

We had an issue with Springs approach and it was finally clarified that two way radio contact is established once approach says your callsign. They got really pissed at a couple dudes and the answer was "you said Talon xx, roger," if that's all you have to say I'm going to do what I want.

Shack.

[Swanee]

Swanee,

What's the Navy's rules on VFR flight not on an MTR in the T-45?

How low?

How fast?

What else?

500' over unpopulated areas (everything in South Texas is unpopulated), 250 kts below 10K (though we come in for the break at 350ish, maybe faster if it's Friday). Though we really don't get too low. Lowest VFR I've been not inside the initial is about 1500', and that was coming back from the outlying field after doing carrier type landing practice to stay under the weather.

[HossHarris]

A couple of problems with your post.

1. You have to be in radio contact in Class C, and you must accept those vectors/altitudes.

False. You must be in 2-way radio contact but you don't have to accept shit. Not saying it's a good idea ... but you don't have to play once they've replied by callsign.

[Jughead]

False. You must be in 2-way radio contact but you don't have to accept shit. Not saying it's a good idea ... but you don't have to play once they've replied by callsign.

Care to bet your ticket on that...?

Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.

[AZwildcat]

A couple of problems with your post.

1. You have to be in radio contact in Class C, and you must accept those vectors/altitudes. But its only 10nm in diameter. You don't have to participate outside of it. When I arrived VFR at Laughlin a few trips ago, I got radio contact at about 12 nm from the field, with them acknowledging my callsign. As I blew inside of 10nm, they got audibly agitated. When I landed, I was told to contact the TRACON. Long story short, I dared them to file a violation on me. "Bring it" I told them. They backed off and said they "would let it go this time"

2. When you depart the Class C, call "terminate" and your flight following is done. You can go through the MOA all day long and not talk to a soul. But if you are VFR with flight following, you still have to accept controllers instructions. Don't want to follow them? Ball's in your court.

Caveat: If you have an incident, and you were not getting flight following, expect to have your nuts crushed.

Ya I'm just talking more from the perspective of a local T-6 flying around, Obviously we're expected to play ball and follow local procedures. There's all kinds of things going on as to when you're IFR, VFR, MARSA, etc. Add a few international solo students and some transient U-2 drivers into the mix and it gets fun.

wrong. the purpose of a MOA is to seperate IFR traffic from non-hazardous military traffic. Joe Schmoe in his C-172 can blaze a VFR trail through your MOA any day of the week, without even talking to anyone, and it's completely legal. And stupid. At least the sectionals include MOA freqs now, so Joe Schmoe can choose to check in if he wants...

Right, happens all the time here. If it's a clueless bug smasher we'll usually go fly circles around him and chase him out of the MOA. Not that a solo student in the T-6 couldn't be described in the same terms.

500' over unpopulated areas (everything in South Texas is unpopulated), 250 kts below 10K (though we come in for the break at 350ish, maybe faster if it's Friday). Though we really don't get too low. Lowest VFR I've been not inside the initial is about 1500', and that was coming back from the outlying field after doing carrier type landing practice to stay under the weather.

The impression I always had was the Navy was more into the "make up your own low level" game vs flying published MTR routes, I don't know how much truth there is to that

[Guest]

Care to bet your ticket on that...?

You can always ask them to say reason for a stupid instruction they give. You can also say "unable" if you are unable for any appropriate reason...like fuel or other mission requirements.

[Swanee]

The impression I always had was the Navy was more into the "make up your own low level" game vs flying published MTR routes, I don't know how much truth there is to that

Depends on what part of the world you're in. El Centro, Fallon, China Lake or Whidbey? Go ahead- as long as you're in a jet painted gray. Flying a clown jet painted orange and white? No so much.

[Swanee]

Thanks for all the help gents- Looks like we're going to head up to Boise and hit up the 1304/5. Hopefully getting the 1355 as well. It seems that the 10th FTS out of Tinker doesn't want to share any of the routes they schedule in northern NM/southern CO with us lowly Navy and Marine types.

Some of my buddies in the squadron who have been up that way in the past couple months say that the Boise ANG guys have been great to work with wrt to scheduling routes up there, even suggesting which ones are better to fly and which one are kind of boring.

[LookieRookie]

What is a LATN?

[HU&W]

What is a LATN?

Low Altitude Tactical Navigation - AFI 11-214

[Breckey]

A block of airspace where you are not restricted to a specific route for low level flight.

[Herk Driver]

What is a LATN?

Low altitude tactical (or terrain) navigation

Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!