CV-22 Crash at Hurlburt

[Danger41]

Any updates on the status of the crew?

The SSgt is still in the hospital. Rest are released with one still doing physical therapy.

[AnimalMother]

Does this seem rather fast to anyone?

"Air Force Commander Relieved After Osprey Crash"

https://www.sacbee.co...eved-after.html

nope.

just kicking the can...

[BQZip01]

Does this seem rather fast to anyone?

"Air Force Commander Relieved After Osprey Crash"

https://www.sacbee.co...eved-after.html

Perhaps there was something clear-cut that was done wrong or this was the last straw. I don't know much about the situation, but it's certainly possible that this is completely legit...

...however, I've seen too many good commanders fired in the "one-mistake AF" for piddly reasons.All too often, it seems local leadership is pressured by HHQ to "do something" and the easiest/cowardly thing to do is fire someone who's simply in the wrong place of leadership at the wrong time. These same leaders seem to forget that if "the buck stops here" whenever ANYTHING under their command happens, then it also "stops" with them too.

[Wolf424]

Perhaps there was something clear-cut that was done wrong or this was the last straw. I don't know much about the situation, but it's certainly possible that this is completely legit...

...however, I've seen too many good commanders fired in the "one-mistake AF" for piddly reasons.All too often, it seems local leadership is pressured by HHQ to "do something" and the easiest/cowardly thing to do is fire someone who's simply in the wrong place of leadership at the wrong time. These same leaders seem to forget that if "the buck stops here" whenever ANYTHING under their command happens, then it also "stops" with them too.

...and here this whole time I thought AFSOC was somewhat immune to that type of buffoonery.

[AnimalMother]

...and here this whole time I thought AFSOC was somewhat immune to that type of buffoonery.

I apologize, my sarcasometer seems to be malfunctioning today. Please tell me you're joking.

[sputnik]

That bites

[Danger41]

...and here this whole time I thought AFSOC was somewhat immune to that type of buffoonery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggXmKPMaHMo

[drewpey]

Does this seem rather fast to anyone?

"Air Force Commander Relieved After Osprey Crash"

https://www.sacbee.co...eved-after.html

Gotta collect 'em all...

[AnimalMother]

Gotta collect 'em all...

I recognize most of those guys, but there are one or two that are conspicuously absent...

They do however, seem to be getting by better than I expected they would.

[jrufus]

...and here this whole time I thought AFSOC was somewhat immune to that type of buffoonery.

I don't think you were being sarcastic...the U-28 squadron that lost 4 bros in Djibouti (RIP) has their 5th CC since 2006...the NSAv Light squadron at Cannon has their 4th CC since 2010...many of us thought AFSOC was different (no sarcasm) but apparently it is leading the way.

[Boxhead]

I recognize most of those guys, but there are one or two that are conspicuously absent...

They do however, seem to be getting by better than I expected they would.

Isn't this a pic of the 1 SOW/CC desk?

[BQZip01]

I don't think you were being sarcastic...the U-28 squadron that lost 4 bros in Djibouti (RIP) has their 5th CC since 2006...the NSAv Light squadron at Cannon has their 4th CC since 2010...many of us thought AFSOC was different (no sarcasm) but apparently it is leading the way.

AFSOC: "We put the 'Special' in Special Operations"

[ThreeHoler]

This has become the AFSOC standard. Is the SIB out yet? The Talon 2 Sqn at HRT had two hull losses and a tie of the low altitude record within the space of a year and the fastjet AFSOC/CC stiff-armed any punishment. After the Talon 2 hull-loss in Albania, they weren't done burying the crew when the SIB came out, and the Sqn CC was gone the next day. The quote from the 3-star to the SOG /CC was "I've given you two months to fire the right guy, and you haven't done it, so I'm firing this one."

The 8th SOS/CC was/is a good dude and it's a shame to see him not diluting the pool of martinets in AFSOC.

CCs can't be removed because of a SIB report. AIB? Yes. SIB? No.

Edited June 23, 2012 by ThreeHoler

[HeloDude]

CCs can't be removed because of a SIB report. AIB? Yes. SIB? No.

Irrelevant man...a commander can be fired for any reason under the blanket waiver 'the XX/CC has lost confidence in XX/CC to lead' or something to that affect.

By the way, this wasn't the first issue this Sq CC had...there were other examples in the past (some more recent) with the squadron that caused upper level leadership to want a change.

[Wolf424]

I apologize, my sarcasometer seems to be malfunctioning today. Please tell me you're joking.

That checks. Maybe I should've went with "No way this could happen in today's Air Force...especially in AFSOC!"

[Azimuth]

Irrelevant man...a commander can be fired for any reason under the blanket waiver 'the XX/CC has lost confidence in XX/CC to lead' or something to that affect.

By the way, this wasn't the first issue this Sq CC had...there were other examples in the past (some more recent) with the squadron that caused upper level leadership to want a change.

Didn't the OG at Hurby recently damage an Osprey during a training sortie?

[Karl Hungus]

Didn't the OG at Hurby recently damage an Osprey during a training sortie?

Did he fire himself?

[LockheedFix]

CCs can't be removed because of a SIB report. AIB? Yes. SIB? No.

Not true. UCMJ punishment can not be handed out as the result of a SIB, but Q3s and commander directed downgrades are not considered punishment and as such are fair game. Losing your job would fall into the latter category.

[AnimalMother]

The woes of the Osprey community are far more systemic than one SQ/CC, or even one WG/CC. Until some tough decisions are made by the right people this won't change anything.

Thank God the guys are ok. They were unbelievably fortunate on this one.

[ThreeHoler]

Not true. UCMJ punishment can not be handed out as the result of a SIB, but Q3s and commander directed downgrades are not considered punishment and as such are fair game. Losing your job would fall into the latter category.

AFI 91-204:

3.3.2. The Air Force does not use privileged safety information as evidence for punitive, disciplinary, or adverse administrative actions, for determining the misconduct or line-of-duty status of any person, in flying evaluation board hearings or reviews, to determine liability or liability in claims for or against the United States, or in any other manner in any action by or against the United States.

3.3.2.1. Adverse administrative actions include, but are not limited to, letters of reprimand, counseling, or admonishment, referral EPRs/OPRs, promotion propriety actions (not qualified for promotion, delay and/or denial), administrative separations, selective reenlistment denials, or evidence before any evaluation board and other similar actions. Commanders and supervisors will use other sources of information which are not privileged to take punitive or adverse administrative actions.

3.3.2.2. While privileged safety information may not be used as evidence for punitive, disciplinary, or adverse administrative actions, information from other sources may be used. Sources include information from Accident Investigation Board reports under AFI 51-503, Ground Accident Investigations under AFI 51-507, Commander Directed Investigations (CDIs), safety mishap participant interviews when promises of confidentiality are not authorized (Article 31, UCMJ, rights advisement may be necessary), Security Forces and/or AFOSI information gathered for criminal matters. Consult your local JA for further guidance.

Last time I checked, a Sq/CC being fired as a result of the SIB would be "adverse administrative action" and thus illegal. But thanks for playing.

[Champ Kind]

The woes of the Osprey community are far more systemic than one SQ/CC, or even one WG/CC. Until some tough decisions are made by the right people this won't change anything.

Care to expand?

[AnimalMother]

Care to expand?

Not out to air a lot of dirty laundry, just pointing out that many of the problems facing the CV-22 are well, well beyond the sphere of influence of a SQ/CC. As is the case with a lot of communities. Sure, he will retain a certain degree of culpability regardless, but firing him doesn't fix the problems that he couldn't control from the get go.

[Day Man]

AFI 91-204:

Last time I checked, a Sq/CC being fired as a result of the SIB would be "adverse administrative action" and thus illegal. But thanks for playing.

The SIB is probably not complete, so it's erroneous.

[ThreeHoler]

The SIB is probably not complete, so it's erroneous.

Response is to this assertion:

This has become the AFSOC standard. Is the SIB out yet? The Talon 2 Sqn at HRT had two hull losses and a tie of the low altitude record within the space of a year and the fastjet AFSOC/CC stiff-armed any punishment. After the Talon 2 hull-loss in Albania, they weren't done burying the crew when the SIB came out, and the Sqn CC was gone the next day. The quote from the 3-star to the SOG /CC was "I've given you two months to fire the right guy, and you haven't done it, so I'm firing this one."

The 8th SOS/CC was/is a good dude and it's a shame to see him not diluting the pool of martinets in AFSOC.

[Champ Kind]

Not out to air a lot of dirty laundry, just pointing out that many of the problems facing the CV-22 are well, well beyond the sphere of influence of a SQ/CC. As is the case with a lot of communities. Sure, he will retain a certain degree of culpability regardless, but firing him doesn't fix the problems that he couldn't control from the get go.

Didn't mean to imply that you air out dirty laundry. Just wondering if they were design issues with the airframe that everyone alludes to, or, other issues.