AMC to ACC?

[JackaL]

Had a question about cross flowing.

I know we can go to other AMC platforms once we are in AMC, but can we cross flow to other platforms outside of AMC?

Also, if we flew T-38s in UPT, are we allowed to go to a fighter or would it be easier? Get re-spun up on the -38, go to IFF, then RTU?

Just curious if anyone has heard of someone doing this before.

Only things that come to mind is either going to the U-2 or B-2.

Thanks.

[JackaL]

Thanks Hoss. Lol. Just trying to keep my options open, had a buddy of mine from pilot training say that they are hurting for fighter pilots, didn't know if anyone has heard anything about cross flowing like the old days...fighters to heavies, and vice versa.

[WheelsOff]

RPAs.

Copy, but I'd seriously like to know too. I don't know how easy it would be to get into a fighter, but what about bombers, say the B-1? (I'm in the exact same position as Jackal...)

[JackaL]

I know i might get flamed for saying this, but I think it would make more sense to open up a pipe line if you already had a -38 qual under your belt to have the option to go fly fighters versus bringing in brand new guys that have zero experience in world wide operations. I can see why most guys who were WSOs and prior navs do better at pilot training...the airmanship and SA is WAY higher the more time you have.

And/or AFSOC... flying AC-130s, MC-130s, or U-28s, or the other NSA's that AFSOC has.

Edited June 15, 2012 by JackaL

[Skitzo]

If your leadership and functional support... why not? We had one guy from U-28s crossflow to the U-2, prior F-16 guy.

[JackaL]

Thanks for the words of wisdom Hoss. I'm currently typing from the hell hole I like to call the desert on my third deployment (within a year). I guess I am kind of wanting a change of pace.

[Majestik Møøse]

Do prior navs turned fighter pilots have the same problems?

[Azimuth]

Thanks for the words of wisdom Hoss. I'm currently typing from the hell hole I like to call the desert on my third deployment (within a year). I guess I am kind of wanting a change of pace.

So you hate tankers?

[ThreeHoler]

Do prior navs turned fighter pilots have the same problems?

We just had a prior Nav meet his O-4 board as a copilot. Um, I mean FPQ. Stupid newfangled terms. I miss the simplicity of MC. Now there are fucking FPNs, FPCs FPQs, FPLs, and FPKs.

Anyway, he did fine. It remains to be seen what happens next.

[billy pilgrim]

Pick your poison...

The AMC side is always deployed - but with that lots of flying from what I understand.

The ACC side has plenty of non-flying deployments and ALO gigs and UAV's etc... A bit of a shortage of cockpits I think. (Thanks it seems to the F-22 / F-35 acquisition and drawdowns - https://www.rand.org/...aphs/MG855.html ).

Due to the pipeline being so long it seems like it would be a lengthy transition from AMC to ACC. I can only speak from ACC experience, but a fairly common theme is let's get you a fighter tour to get you experienced and then we can use you to fill some of our numerous positions that require fighter experience - that involve everything BUT flying fighters.

It is my personal opinion that the "shortage" will continue as the new UPT students see what has happened to the T-38 tracked guys and want to steer clear of the gamble. It's called a second order effect I think.

The AF should teach some basic economic concepts in PME. Maybe that would help avoid some of these manpower "problems" that just sneak up out of nowhere!!

Edited June 16, 2012 by billy pilgrim

[matmacwc]

You'd be no good as a senior captain/major as a new wingman in an ACC unit, doesn't happen often (does though), try your best but probably not.

Upon further reflection, I defer to Hoss

[WeMeantWell]

A T-38 spin-up, IFF, FTU, MQT.....you're talking at least a couple years.

What's interesting is that the powers that be (in charge of crossflows) understand the very long lead time and cost to get an expert in an MWS, but the powers that be (in charge of RIF, continuation) have minimal understanding of that concept.

If anything the AF is really good at spinning the data to suite our decisions at that moment.

[Danger41]

Nothing is out of the realm of possibility. Hell, just 10 years ago they did a crossflow from heavies to fighters to fill manning. I wouldn't be surprised one iota if they did that again.

[Guest]

My last Sq/CC started in heavies, crossflowed, graduated FWIC, and became an A-10 FS/CC.

Probably one of those crossflow guys Danger was talking about. Definitely a perfect timing scenario for the guy. Unlikely he spent much time in heavies.

This type of career path is EXTREMELY uncommon.

[Ram]

And remember: This "fighter pilot shortage" is NOT about empty cockpits sitting on the ramp. It's about all the "other" jobs out there that require an 11F.

[Guest]

And remember: This "fighter pilot shortage" is NOT about empty cockpits sitting on the ramp. It's about all the "other" jobs out there that require an 11F.

No shit. The only protection for a crossflow guy would be to upgrade in min time and go to weapons school to get the bad deal shield.

Not a high Pk shot.

[Muscle2002]

No shit. The only protection for a crossflow guy would be to upgrade in min time and go to weapons school to get the bad deal shield.

Not a high Pk shot.

It depends on how you define bad deal. I've known a few whose patch earned them a chance to spend months advising at a Saudi "weapons school"...they were not impressed with their act nor felt it worth the time/money the USAF spent to train them to be WOs. I'm sure others can attest to this fact, but there are W-prefix billets in the AOR that could be filled by a non-patchwearer. It's cool that the reputation of the patch is highly esteemed and thus in high demand, but leadership needs to look at actual requirements to prevent running ragged the WO corps with specious personnel requirements.

[magnetfreezer]

It depends on how you define bad deal. I've known a few whose patch earned them a chance to spend months advising at a Saudi "weapons school"...they were not impressed with their act nor felt it worth the time/money the USAF spent to train them to be WOs. I'm sure others can attest to this fact, but there are W-prefix billets in the AOR that could be filled by a non-patchwearer. It's cool that the reputation of the patch is highly esteemed and thus in high demand, but leadership needs to look at actual requirements to prevent running ragged the WO corps with specious personnel requirements.

'2'

Also have patches as stateside execs (or soon to be deployed wing execs).

[Guest]

Fair enough, but I think you know what I meant.

[Smokin]

From what I understand, the shortage of fighter pilots is due to the bottleneck of fighter B courses and TX courses. Cross-flowing guys could in theory help because a TX is only about 2 months for the Viper compared to the 6-9 month B course. However, big blue has gone full throttle on the B courses and almost stopped the TXs. Additionally, based on the near stoppage of TX courses, there are tons of non-current fighter guys in white jets, RPAs, staff, etc that could spin up into a more combat capable fighter pilot quicker than a previous cargo/tanker/whatever guy. As has been said, the shortage is not necessarily in fighter squadrons, although squadrons are starting to hurt in terms of manning as well as big blue just keeps dropping the number of pilots they consider to be a 'fully manned' squadron. A cross flow might still be possible, but the only pilot that I know who has gotten into the Viper from another MWS in the last 6-9 years was from the Eagle.

[RTB]

Cross-flowing guys could in theory help because a TX is only about 2 months for the Viper compared to the 6-9 month B course.

Pretty sure cross flow guys from non-fighters have always gone through a B-course, not a TX.

[contraildash]

I've recently seen two guys go from 'heavy/AMC' aircraft to the B-2. I've also seen guys with the same background as those two dudes get into AFSOC. This in the past few months. Word of advice though, if you want to do it, make an educated choice. Get out there and make some contacts within whatever AFSOC community you want. Don't just throw AFSOC on your ADP and hope for the best. Make your own luck.

And from my understanding, just because you flew '38s in UPT doesn't make you fighter qual'd. Maybe someone currently working AETC '38s can confirm that.

[Danny Noonin]

Pretty sure cross flow guys from non-fighters have always gone through a B-course, not a TX.

True

[Nineline]

I've recently seen two guys go from 'heavy/AMC' aircraft to the B-2.

Actually, there's been a few more than two. Lately, it seems that there's been one or two heavy drivers hired in every interview group.

Also, the B-2 isn't ACC, it's AFGSC now. And my advice would be to avoid any AFGSC assignment at all costs unless you absolutely love nukes and Barksdale is your idea of paradise. AFGSC is still the new kid on the block and their primary focus is a) not get blamed for another nuke fvck-up and b) to legitimize themselves. Taking care of their people comes in at a distant third.

-9-

Edited June 17, 2012 by Nineline

[Ram]

From what I understand, the shortage of fighter pilots is due to the bottleneck of fighter B courses and TX courses. Cross-flowing guys could in theory help because a TX is only about 2 months for the Viper compared to the 6-9 month B course. However, big blue has gone full throttle on the B courses and almost stopped the TXs. Additionally, based on the near stoppage of TX courses, there are tons of non-current fighter guys in white jets, RPAs, staff, etc that could spin up into a more combat capable fighter pilot quicker than a previous cargo/tanker/whatever guy. As has been said, the shortage is not necessarily in fighter squadrons, although squadrons are starting to hurt in terms of manning as well as big blue just keeps dropping the number of pilots they consider to be a 'fully manned' squadron. A cross flow might still be possible, but the only pilot that I know who has gotten into the Viper from another MWS in the last 6-9 years was from the Eagle.

You're almost correct. Sure, new fighter pilot production is maxed-out, but if TX courses were the fix Big Blue would be all over that.

The REAL limfac is the number of fighter cockpits we have. To get a guy "qualified" to do a NON-flying job that requires an 11F, he must first be experienced in his MWS. As we've cut the overall number of fighter cockpits available, AFPC is seeing the second and third order effects of those dwindling cockpits: A smaller pool of "experienced" fighter guys that they can send off to do "other" jobs.

While ramping up TX courses would improve the number of current/qualified fighter pilots, there's no way to increase the number of cockpits. (Well, we COULD buy more fighters, but I have some coastal land in North Dakota I'd like to sell you if you believe THAT will happen soon...)

Increasing TX course throughput just kicks the can down the road a few years anyway. Eventually, those older dudes will "age out" (think: Rainman) and be useless to AFPC. Without keeping the B course numbers high, AFPC would only fix the problem in the near term and create a much bigger problem a couple years down the road. (Ha...AFPC has NEVER done that before, RIGHT?)

Edited June 18, 2012 by Ram