FLY6584 Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 Is it possible? I've heard some people say it's definitely possible and others say don't bother until you're within 1 year of your ADSC.
ThreeHoler Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 I know people who PC'd with >2 years on their ADSC and people who were denied with ~15 months remaining.
Butters Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 Is it possible? I've heard some people say it's definitely possible and others say don't bother until you're within 1 year of your ADSC. Possible? Yes. Probable? No If you try... maybee If you don't... No
Chida Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 Depends. Do you have 2/3 of your initial ADSC done? Initial ADSC means the one you got from your commissioning source. So for USAFA that's 2/3*5=3 years and 4 months. For ROTC it's 2/3*4=2 years, 8 months. Go ahead and apply. It will probably get denied, but on the bright side you'll self-indentify that you don't want to be around which can lead to getting passed over for major which can lead to your separation before your ADSC is done. On the other hand 6 years is a long time and there will probably be multiple opportunities in the coming years for early outs in the form of force shaping, RIFs, VSP, etc.
Spartacus Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 Pk is O point shit and you'll just identify yourself as a non team player. After that you'll be first in line for every shit deal that comes down. Hold your cards close and fly as much as possible. When you have less than 24 months remaining on your ADSC go bananas. The 7 day opt card is priceless... until then they have you by the balls. Edit: Spellin I've never understood this 7 day opt thing. Can someone explain it to me? I was wondering the other day if for example you have 4 years left on your ADSC when you show up to a new base how that would work. Theoretically you would do 3 years and then what? Do you 7 day opt and then get to stay at your base for another year before you separate? Are there time limits to this?
matmacwc Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 I've never understood this 7 day opt thing. Can someone explain it to me? I was wondering the other day if for example you have 4 years left on your ADSC when you show up to a new base how that would work. Theoretically you would do 3 years and then what? Do you 7 day opt and then get to stay at your base for another year before you separate? Are there time limits to this? Talk to your functional, mine told me I would stay put with 12 months left. I know a guy that stayed put with 18 months left.
FLY6584 Posted June 21, 2012 Author Posted June 21, 2012 I've never understood this 7 day opt thing. Can someone explain it to me? I was wondering the other day if for example you have 4 years left on your ADSC when you show up to a new base how that would work. Theoretically you would do 3 years and then what? Do you 7 day opt and then get to stay at your base for another year before you separate? Are there time limits to this? Yeah I've wondered the same thing. I've got exactly 6 years 9 months left on my commitment. I have 5 years and 1 month in so I assume I'll meet my first majors board in approx 3 years and 4 months from now. I have no doubt I want out of the Air Force and I know I will not make Major because I am not getting my Masters or doing in SOS in correspondence (current commander wont send you in residence unless you have it done) and I just showed up at my next assignment so I'm hoping to make this my last assignment in the Air Force. Is that possible? If I'm supposed to be here for 4 years and I'm passed over for the first time 3 years and 4 months from now will they PCS me again and tack on another ADSC even though I'll get passed over again and hopefully not offered continuation? I know everyone says hold your cards close and you never know what the future holds, but I don't care if I have to instruct in a damn cessna or take some crappy regional job, I just want out of the Air Force.
Chida Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 If you're 2x passed over ADSC does not matter, so don't worry about getting PCS'd. I knew a guy who got PCS'd inbetween his first pass-over and his 2nd and it was to Yokota. He was only at Yokota for about 4 months since he decided to take so much terminal leave. If you get 2x passed over and they offer continuation just refuse it and you'll have a mandatory separation 6 months from when the board results are released. If they don't offer continuation just take that money to the bank! It should be around $70000 for involuntary separation pay, plus you can sell your leave back (60 days=~$10000). If you really want out bad, once you have a DOS set, you can move that to sooner, although I wouldn't recommend giving yourself less than 2 months to get your stuff together to outprocess.
FLY6584 Posted June 22, 2012 Author Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) If you're 2x passed over ADSC does not matter, so don't worry about getting PCS'd. I knew a guy who got PCS'd inbetween his first pass-over and his 2nd and it was to Yokota. He was only at Yokota for about 4 months since he decided to take so much terminal leave. If you get 2x passed over and they offer continuation just refuse it and you'll have a mandatory separation 6 months from when the board results are released. If they don't offer continuation just take that money to the bank! It should be around $70000 for involuntary separation pay, plus you can sell your leave back (60 days=~$10000). If you really want out bad, once you have a DOS set, you can move that to sooner, although I wouldn't recommend giving yourself less than 2 months to get your stuff together to outprocess. Great info! Thanks man! That would be great if they didn't offer me continuation. So if my first board meets in November of 2015 and the second board meets in November of 2016 it sounds like the earliest I can be out is between November of 2016 and May of 2017. So about 4.5-5 years from now. I was just afraid that after being passed over they could send me to a RPA and I'd be stuck on AD for another 3 years. I'm obviously not going to be a $hitbag on AD... I'm just choosing not to check the boxes. Second question... I've got a Reserve unit in my hometown that said they would hire me tomorrow if I could get off AD. If I get passed over twice for Major on AD and the Reserve unit still wants me is it possible to meet another Major's board in the Reserves? Thanks! Edited June 22, 2012 by FLY6584
Chida Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) Yes, it's actually mandatory, but you should do SOS in correspondence at the very least. If you want to put it off until the last possible second it will achieve the same result on AD as not having done it at all. There is a time limit on it, I'm pretty sure, before you're ineligible to do SOS. Also I don't know if you have any interest in free education, but if you do want to get your master's degree on the USAF dime, you don't have to report that you actually got it. So you could have the degree, but it won't be on your records thus achieving the same result as not having one. Then when the timing suits you, you can put it on your record (Reserve Major and/or Lt Col promotion boards). Also for your timeline: let's say your second board meets Nov 16. The board results will probably be released in Feb 17. Your mandatory DOS will be Aug 17, but you can ask for an earlier DOS. So in this scenario you could possibly get out Feb-Aug 17. Just do the TAP (Transition Assistance Program) class at the Airman and Family Readiness Center well prior to the board release date since they won't let you go until you get that done. That class is the only potential roadblock to getting out on a short timeline. One more thing. If you're 2x passed over on AD you'll need a waiver. To get the waiver you'll need your losing and gaining wing commanders to write you letters of confidence/recommendation which go to a General somewhere in the Reserve bureaucracy. Then the General says yea/nay based on your record and these letters. Edited June 22, 2012 by Chida
spaw2001 Posted June 25, 2012 Posted June 25, 2012 I've never understood this 7 day opt thing. Can someone explain it to me? I was wondering the other day if for example you have 4 years left on your ADSC when you show up to a new base how that would work. Theoretically you would do 3 years and then what? Do you 7 day opt and then get to stay at your base for another year before you separate? Are there time limits to this? Yup, 7 day opt out protects the member from PCS'ing within 2 years of a DOS because PCS's incur a 2 yr commitment. Say, you have one year left on your commitment and they non-vol you to Minot, you can 7 day opt out and stay at your current base until separation. Yet, often Wings that have a ton of non-vols to shit bases will track your 2 years to separation date so they can drop an assignment on you before the 7 day opt out becomes an option. Also, in rare instances, the AF could force you to move if you are within 2 years, but they cannot force you to extend your ADSC. Finally, someone who 7 day opts out is ripe for a 365 because the cards are shown. The best way to avoid all this is to try and time your PCSs such that your commitment expires at the end of a normal length tour. 1
Spartacus Posted June 25, 2012 Posted June 25, 2012 Yup, 7 day opt out protects the member from PCS'ing within 2 years of a DOS because PCS's incur a 2 yr commitment. Say, you have one year left on your commitment and they non-vol you to Minot, you can 7 day opt out and stay at your current base until separation. Yet, often Wings that have a ton of non-vols to shit bases will track your 2 years to separation date so they can drop an assignment on you before the 7 day opt out becomes an option. Also, in rare instances, the AF could force you to move if you are within 2 years, but they cannot force you to extend your ADSC. Finally, someone who 7 day opts out is ripe for a 365 because the cards are shown. The best way to avoid all this is to try and time your PCSs such that your commitment expires at the end of a normal length tour. This brings me to another question. (and I've heard some stuff on this before) Say you show up to a base with 2 years left on your ADSC and you go through training (maybe PIT or IPUG or something like that) and they want you to sign a 3 year commitment due to the training you just received. Is it true that you don't have to do that because they can't make you sign something that takes you past your ADSC? Any sources on this? Anyone have experience with this?
Hvydvr Posted June 25, 2012 Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) This brings me to another question. (and I've heard some stuff on this before) Say you show up to a base with 2 years left on your ADSC and you go through training (maybe PIT or IPUG or something like that) and they want you to sign a 3 year commitment due to the training you just received. Is it true that you don't have to do that because they can't make you sign something that takes you past your ADSC? Any sources on this? Anyone have experience with this? You're supposed to get the ADSC paperwork prior to the start of training---before you leave your losing unit. You do NOT have to voluntarily incur additional ADSC for training, BUT that means they can either cancel the assignment or waive the ADSC. This type of set up occurs at the 10 yr (initial) or retirement timeframes. Ref the Assignments AFI 36-2110. Yup, 7 day opt out protects the member from PCS'ing within 2 years of a DOS because PCS's incur a 2 yr commitment. Say, you have one year left on your commitment and they non-vol you to Minot, you can 7 day opt out and stay at your current base until separation. Yet, often Wings that have a ton of non-vols to shit bases will track your 2 years to separation date so they can drop an assignment on you before the 7 day opt out becomes an option. Also, in rare instances, the AF could force you to move if you are within 2 years, but they cannot force you to extend your ADSC. Finally, someone who 7 day opts out is ripe for a 365 because the cards are shown. The best way to avoid all this is to try and time your PCSs such that your commitment expires at the end of a normal length tour. Exactly right. You can't be forced to extend your ADSC and this causes most AOs to roll off on any assignment action w/in 2 yrs of separation. HOWEVER, if the AO is hard up enough at a particular base, there is an avenue to waive the ADSC and send the individual anyway but it's a pain in the a$$ and not normally done. As far as the 365 piece...absolutely untrue. 365s are determined by ODSD and STRD. If you think you are getting nailed with a 365 because you declined an assignment, request a copy of "the rack and stack" for the remotes and go to your Congressman. 365s are not allowed to be used punitively and AOs will get their balls kicked up around their ears if a Congressional staffer catches them off the reservation doing this. Edited June 25, 2012 by Hvydvr
Chida Posted June 25, 2012 Posted June 25, 2012 Can't you opt out of a 365 if you have no ADSC? Yes but it's a 3-day option under ITDY's like that. While you won't automatically get a 365 from showing your cards, nothing prevents you from getting a 6-month non-flying deployment bad deal from showing your cards. Don't let that fear stop you from doing what you need to do, though.
sweet I'm SOF Posted June 25, 2012 Posted June 25, 2012 I feel compelled to throw in some worthless coins here. Context: I palace chased when I was enlisted. Turned down the SERB, turned down testing for SSgt, burned every bridge. I never once contemplated the pros and cons of showing my cards. Everyone that outranked me, which was everyone, admonished me for being foolish. I showed every card. I PC'd into the ANG. While in the ANG I applied for and was accepted to ROTC. Again, everyone that outranked me told me that I was a fool, and that if I stayed in the ANG I could be a MSgt in record time. I showed my cards, and was discharged out of the ANG into ROTC. A few years later, when I was a Captain, I was disenchanted with the institution. I did not try to work any 7 day opt scenarios, I put my separation papers on the DO's desk. And I told him why I wanted to leave. I decided to stay in after a few discussions with the sq, grp, and wg commanders. I got an assignment shortly after, which brightened my outlook. There are questions that remain:Should I have stayed in the ANG? Should I have voted with my feet as a Captain? I am comfortable leaving those unanswered, because once I made a decision, I showed all of the cards. I was honest with everyone, including myself. If the AF said "get out" when I was a SrA or a Captain, I would have marched on without looking back. I think it is important that you to come to grips with what you want to do. If you can honestly do that, you'll be fine. If you resort to playing 7 day opt games and RIF games, passed over twice games, etc.; that smacks of you being a chickenshit who doesn't know how to commit to a decision, and/or someone who is trying to milk the institution for every nickel they can. Either way - can you blame the institution for handing you a less than desirable outcome? Be upfront. Don't hold your cards. Do what you are going to do, hopefully your priorities to yourself and your family if you have one can hold a candle to the institution. As always, I am a divergent one, so let the spears fly.
pcola Posted June 25, 2012 Posted June 25, 2012 As far as the 365 piece...absolutely untrue. 365s are determined by ODSD and STRD. If you think you are getting nailed with a 365 because you declined an assignment, request a copy of "the rack and stack" for the remotes and go to your Congressman. 365s are not allowed to be used punitively and AOs will get their balls kicked up around their ears if a Congressional staffer catches them off the reservation doing this. True. Spelled out clearly in AFI 36-2110. I think it's Ch 5 IIRC.
pcola Posted June 25, 2012 Posted June 25, 2012 If you resort to playing 7 day opt games and RIF games, passed over twice games, etc.; that smacks of you being a chickenshit who doesn't know how to commit to a decision, and/or someone who is trying to milk the institution for every nickel they can. Either way - can you blame the institution for handing you a less than desirable outcome? Be upfront. Don't hold your cards. Do what you are going to do, hopefully your priorities to yourself and your family if you have one can hold a candle to the institution. As always, I am a divergent one, so let the spears fly. Bold part - That is in fact the only way in which people can "beat the system" and renege on their voluntary commitment. I agree with you, BTW. Gotta love it when officers are mentoring officers on the best way to avoid serving their voluntary commitment.
ThreeHoler Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 Yes but it's a 3-day option under ITDY's like that. While you won't automatically get a 365 from showing your cards, nothing prevents you from getting a 6-month non-flying deployment bad deal from showing your cards. Don't let that fear stop you from doing what you need to do, though. I thought they got rid of the 7-day/3-day opt on short tours.
Skitzo Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 There have been several people that I know of that have declined orders to cannon because they would incur an ADSC beyond their initial 10 for a new airframe.
spaw2001 Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 Obviously they can't punitively assign a 365 to you and yes those come from higher up. In general, however, if a unit has to slap a tour on to someone (i.e. a CAOC gig or insert other shitty deal), your name will be passed up over someone they are taking care of. I misspoke when I said 365 because those are assigned from above as mentioned earlier in this thread.
Splash95 Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 There have been several people that I know of that have declined orders to cannon because they would incur an ADSC beyond their initial 10 for a new airframe. The number I heard when starting training earlier this year was 60% (i.e. 60% of people will 7-day opt rather than take orders to Cannon).
Guest Posted June 26, 2012 Posted June 26, 2012 Wow. That is an unbelievable number. I can't imagine that being true when there was a fighter wing there. Last time anyone can say fighter guys complain too much...
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