Stop Loss For 11F

[Danny Noonin]

No. I don't know you got out. Why should I know that?

Well I figured you would have paid attention to all the other threads that degenerated into an airline discussion and I'm one of only a couple guys on this forum that has flown in the airlines, thats why. Plus...I'm kind of a big deal.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Danny Noonin

[Guest]

"Agent Orange, maybe you heard of me?"

SA, the most precious of things.

[Spartacus]

Pancake, first off...good luck.

I am glad you are enthusiastic about your future as an airline pilot. I hope it is everything you dreamed.

However...

I, like others here, have countless friends who absolutely hate their A-word job. These are good dudes. And they hate their job.

You come off a bit visceral, especially when talking about a "corporate" job. There are many things pilots are able to do. I am sorry you have narrowed the list to project management but I will tell you on that account you are completely wrong. Pilots are capable of much more and the money is quite good if you are willing to work. I travel a fair amount but I have a global job. However, I set my own travel schedule and I am lucky to be able to travel well and stay in some pretty nice places. Now that my kids are old enough to take care of themselves my wife can travel with me if she wants. When my kids were in jr high and high school I was able to attend more of their activities than I ever was when I was in the USAF. Many of my A-word friends are missing important things with their families.

I'm not trying to sell you on anything. I'm just letting you know not everyone likes their A-word job and not all non-flying jobs are as horrible as you describe.

Again, good luck finding a job wherever you most want one.

I've seen you post that before. Care to enlighten us? I am going to go out on a limb here but I would bet your success in finding a good non-a-word job is correlated to your success within the AF and having been a patch wearer. Whether it is because of that directly or the hook ups (relationships/networking) that you had because of that I wonder if the rest of us who don't go to WIC would experience similar success on the outside? (Obviously ymmv) Or, is it more of playing the game, using a head hunter, being willing to relocate anywhere, and applying broadly in many different fields in many different positions? I just think that it is a tough pill to swallow for a lot of us to walk away and not go to an airline unless we are making 100k-125k+ (my numbers only) flying a desk. To my knowledge a job that pays in that range is going to be tough if not impossible to find for someone who has just walked out of the AF after 10 years. Maybe it is easier for someone who just served 20+ but in this economy the airlines for a lot of us at least provide a small measure of hope that we will have a career that pays pretty well a little down the road.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Spartacus

[scoobs]

No. I don't know you got out. Why should I know that?

My decision matrix is set-I'm out next month. And I'm not a young pup. And I'm not naive. Yeah, holding a reserve line sucks-watched my dad do it for a few years. Got it. But regardless of whatever airline you're at, I suspect that when hiring kicks in, you'll be very satisfied with your decision to punch as your seniority number quickly rises. I'm fully aware, as should any "young pup" that's done their research, that life can be tough with a relatively low seniority number. I'm not worried about today or even ten years from now. I'm looking forward to life at 50, when my kids are in high school/college and I'm able to hold a pretty good line. My estimation is that those able to get hired in the next few years will have a pretty satisfying airline career. Let's hope I'm right.

Deep breath... Yawn... how many "Dude, relax" colloquialisms can we use in one thread?

Very few guys recommend an airline career to the "young pups?" Seriously? Where do you work? Every active pilot I know at a major is very positive about their career.

What airline are you going to? Are you on flightinfo, lots of angry peeps over there.

Edited July 15, 2012 by scoobs

[Pancake]

I, like others here, have countless friends who absolutely hate their A-word job. These are good dudes. And they hate their job.

You come off a bit visceral, especially when talking about a "corporate" job. There are many things pilots are able to do. I am sorry you have narrowed the list to project management but I will tell you on that account you are completely wrong. Pilots are capable of much more and the money is quite good if you are willing to work. I travel a fair amount but I have a global job. However, I set my own travel schedule and I am lucky to be able to travel well and stay in some pretty nice places. Now that my kids are old enough to take care of themselves my wife can travel with me if she wants. When my kids were in jr high and high school I was able to attend more of their activities than I ever was when I was in the USAF. Many of my A-word friends are missing important things with their families.

Rainman, your professional success was very influential in my search for a career outside of airline flying. I was looking for a job similar to how you describe yours.

So, with my USAFA diploma, MBA (sorry, U of AZ is the best program I do while teaching at the FTU), MA in International Relations (albeit, an online degree from Norwich), and ATP, I spent a year applying online, attending job fairs, and talking to recruiters for jobs that sound either similar to yours or entail a leadership development program (re: GE's JOLP). Short of earning an MBA at HBS or Wharton, attending WIC and retiring as an O-6, I think I've prepared well for leaving Active Duty. So, here's what I found:

1. Degrees mean nothing without experience. "You have an MBA? That's nice, but have you ever interned, done finance, used this-or-that analysis tool, or worked at a for-profit business?" I challenge anyone to "translate" those OPR bullets and proj-o experiences into something legitimately relevant to what you'll be expected to do in a $100-$120K entry position. Woe to the guy that "translates" well but can't actually do the job.

2. You are expected to work 60 hours a week (unless you work government contracts) . You are employed to make money for the shareholders. You will commute. You will take work home with you. You will travel (something I want to do). You will be away from your family (something I don't want to do). You will "PCS" (something I'm tired of doing).

3. Guard/Reserve flying is really not practical/compatible with anything besides airline pilot. Companies are very military friendly. Some companies, like Raytheon, even continue to pay your salary while you're deployed! But they also expect you to be at work. While I know a few that manage non-flying careers with Guard flying, it's tough. Either work or flying (or both) will suffer. Accenture and a few other DC-area firms seem cool with letting you off from work to fly, but I think a lot of that is having an understanding/cool boss.

4. The non-flying careers that are realistically attainable don't pass the "make me want to get out of bed" test. I would love to be a lawyer. However, at 35 with a young family, I'm not going to stop earning a livable income for three years in order to attend law school, then try to find a six-figure job where I'm not working 60 hours a week. However, after retiring from the ANG/AFRC, a part-time law program is compatible with an airline career.

5. All good jobs require networking. If networking isn't possible, then you need luck. There are thousands of equally qualified people all competing for the good jobs. IMO, "fighter pilot" is a conversation piece, not a golden ticket to six-figure employment.

6. Don't spin your wheels during the job hunt-find traction. Just as successful companies do, align your talents, skills, and core competencies with corporate objectives. Professional flying is, IMO, the "best fit" of my skills and business objectives of a corporation.

7. Luck and timing are everything. Being at the "right" career fair, sitting next to the "right" connection on an 2-hour flight, etc... is all luck. On the airline side of that coin, I know that the post-9/11 furloughs killed a lot of airline careers. Hopefully this predicted hiring wave will yield better luck.

I'm surprised by all the airline skeptics. There are career opportunities for Air Force pilots besides airline flying, but I think some of the accounts given on this board are very unique. The reality is, to earn a comparable living outside of flying you have to learn a new skill, take an entry-level job (pay cut), or be prepared to work very hard doing something more related to your current additional duty than flying airplanes.

Rainman, please tell us what you actually do for a living and how you got there.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Pancake

[Spartacus]

Rainman, your professional success was very influential in my search for a career outside of airline flying. I was looking for a job similar to how you describe yours.

So, with my USAFA diploma, MBA (sorry, U of AZ is the best program I do while teaching at the FTU), MA in International Relations (albeit, an online degree from Norwich), and ATP, I spent a year applying online, attending job fairs, and talking to recruiters for jobs that sound either similar to yours or entail a leadership development program (re: GE's JOLP). Short of earning an MBA at HBS or Wharton, attending WIC and retiring as an O-6, I think I've prepared well for leaving Active Duty. So, here's what I found:

1. Degrees mean nothing without experience. "You have an MBA? That's nice, but have you ever interned, done finance, used this-or-that analysis tool, or worked at a for-profit business?" I challenge anyone to "translate" those OPR bullets and proj-o experiences into something legitimately relevant to what you'll be expected to do in a $100-$120K entry position. Woe to the guy that "translates" well but can't actually do the job.

I know a guy who lived this scenario. He earned an MBA, got hired on with a good company with good pay and was promptly handed a big project. He sucked and couldn't hack it and was canned pretty much before he had completely moved into his office. He ended up moving back to his hometown and is not able to use his MBA. Last I heard he picked up a job he didn't want just to put food on the table and it doesn't even pay that well. He got himself into a huge mess.

[Guest]

I've seen you post that before. Care to enlighten us?

I don't want to make this about me but I am happy to elaborate in general.

I am going to go out on a limb here but I would bet your success in finding a good non-a-word job is correlated to your success within the AF and having been a patch wearer. Whether it is because of that directly or the hook ups (relationships/networking) that you had because of that I wonder if the rest of us who don't go to WIC would experience similar success on the outside?

Obviously my resume reflected my experience and education. Finding a job had nothing to do with any connections I made in the USAF.

Or, is it more of playing the game, using a head hunter, being willing to relocate anywhere, and applying broadly in many different fields in many different positions?

I never talked to a cranium hunter. I moved first and searched in that market. I absolutely went into my search with a complete willingness to do anything except fly for food or work for a defense contractor, my personal choices. That left 99.69% of the job market available as an option.

I just think that it is a tough pill to swallow for a lot of us to walk away and not go to an airline unless we are making 100k-125k+ (my numbers only) flying a desk. To my knowledge a job that pays in that range is going to be tough if not impossible to find for someone who has just walked out of the AF after 10 years. Maybe it is easier for someone who just served 20+ but in this economy the airlines for a lot of us at least provide a small measure of hope that we will have a career that pays pretty well a little down the road.

I feel you. I am not trying to talk anyone out of an A-word career. I'm just saying there are some great non-flying jobs that pilots can do.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Rainman A-10

[Guest]

Rainman, your professional success was very influential in my search for a career outside of airline flying. I was looking for a job similar to how you describe yours.

I think I've prepared well for leaving Active Duty.

I would agree. I would hire you in a heartbeat.

I challenge anyone to "translate" those OPR bullets and proj-o experiences into something legitimately relevant to what you'll be expected to do in a $100-$120K entry position. Woe to the guy that "translates" well but can't actually do the job.

It can be done. Pilots tend to sell themselves short when considering their abilities outside the cockpit. Amazing the ego and confidence doesn't transfer well but that is standard for some reason.

You are expected to work 60 hours a week (unless you work government contracts) . You are employed to make money for the shareholders. You will commute. You will take work home with you. You will travel (something I want to do). You will be away from your family (something I don't want to do). You will "PCS" (something I'm tired of doing).

Not all of that is true but quite frankly the work hours don't really bother me because I tended to spend a lot of time at work and i never saw a TDY or opporTunity to get downrange thatni didnt like when I was in the USAF.

I don't take work home. Ever.

I won't relocate unless I want to.

I happen to be in Europe right now but I can manage my travel pretty well. I do webex meetings with folks in many locations across NA, EMEA, APAC and LATAM several times a day and that reduces my travel significantly. I am home earlier and more often than when I was in thes USAF.

Guard/Reserve flying is really not practical/compatible with anything besides airline pilot.

I agree 100%.

The non-flying careers that are realistically attainable don't pass the "make me want to get out of bed" test.

That matters a lot. I felt the same way and set my job search scope appropriately.

All good jobs require networking.

I did a lot of this. I can't count the number of "informational" interviews I did. I would talk to anyone about anything. I used those interviews to expand my network (I wouldn't walk it without getting at least two names of people the interviewer would point me to).

If networking isn't possible, then you need luck. There are thousands of equally qualified people all competing for the good jobs. IMO, "fighter pilot" is a conversation piece, not a golden ticket to six-figure employment.

You need luck no matter what.

"fighter plot" opens an unbelievable number of doors. It is up to you to walk through and make the most of it, at least that's how I looked at it.

[sky_king]

I know a guy who lived this scenario. He earned an MBA, got hired on with a good company with good pay and was promptly handed a big project. He sucked and couldn't hack it and was canned pretty much before he had completely moved into his office. He ended up moving back to his hometown and is not able to use his MBA. Last I heard he picked up a job he didn't want just to put food on the table and it doesn't even pay that well. He got himself into a huge mess.

This is why I asked if I could use my tuition assistance to attend community college classes for welding, A/C repair, electrical, framing, etc. If I get out, I would like to be a foreman for a general contracting company. It'd be a good fit with my pre-air force background and possible be useful to the air force. "Nope, worthless online masters is all we can pay for."

edit: Used "me" instead of "my" and sounded like a pirate. arghh

Edited July 16, 2012 by sky_king

[HuggyU2]

edit: Used "me" instead of "my" and sounded like a pirate. arghh

https://www.talklikeapirate.com/

[JeremiahWeed]

Isn't fedex a lot of backside of the clock flying?

Scoobs,

There is a lot of this type of flying at Fedex. I was concerned about how I would deal with it when I got hired. I always thought nights were an EP in the Eagle and I had flown red-eyes from the west coast to points east while employed with UAL and thought they blew.

I was surprised to find that when I was based in MEM (and couldn't hold international flying), I actually preferred nights over the types of day flying available domestically. I can give you more details if you'd like but the bottom line is, I found it reasonably easy to sleep during the day (in a hotel). The duty days ("nights") are generally shorter and easier than typical days with a pax carrier.

I'm now based in ANC flying almost 100% international, so things are different but generally easier than the night flying I did domestically (so it can get better quickly if you can get to a place like ANC-we have new hires going there now). I commute there from the midwest US and my pay hours are higher with more days off than when I was based in MEM.

As far as the ANC guy who never "hub turns", I think he may be forgetting that many of our trips here have 2 legs (day or night) through stations in Asia. Most guys would call that hub-turning (even if the station you fly through is not an official hub like MEM). i.e. Take off from HKG at 2000L, fly to TPE, gas/load/go, fly to KIX (arriving around 0500L) and go to the hotel. If he's never done anything like that, it's probably because he's just been lucky - not because that type of thing is rare in ANC ('cuz it ain't).

Bottom line - Don't let the night stuff keep you from applying (if you're interested). The back side flying isn't really as bad as I had heard (IMO). If you find it is, there are ways to avoid it until you get senior. Overall, I'd take a Fedex schedule over any pax schedule I had.

Cheers,

JW

[Guest]

JW - craniums up, merge plot noob/troll.

[JeremiahWeed]

JW - craniums up, merge plot noob/troll.

Copy. Thanks.

Maybe the info will be useful to someone else.

[BolterKing]

Copy. Thanks.

Maybe the info will be useful to someone else.

It was. How hard is it commuting to ANC?

[JeremiahWeed]

It was. How hard is it commuting to ANC?

Standard fighter pilot answer – it depends….

Fedex has regular direct flights between ANC and MEM, IND, EWR, OAK and SEA. So, if you can get yourself to one of those airports fairly easily, it’s pretty painless getting there/back. The best scenario would be if you could drive to one of these airports. The next option would be taking a Fedex flight from your home airport to one of these locations and connecting. These flights normally depart around 0300L and arrive around 0700-0800L in ANC.

Having some regular pax carriers as occasional backups can help too. Alaska Airlines flies year round to ANC non-stop from ORD, DEN, LAX, PDT and SEA. They also have a number of connections from points further east through these cities. We get a good discount on them through our corporate travel department, so if you have to buy an occasional ticket it’s usually $400 or less for one-way, first class. If you have extra $$ in your travel bank, you can get Fedex to cover the ticket.

Most of the other pax carriers provide seasonal summer service from around Jun-Sep. Some may go year round but I’m not sure.

Generally speaking, unless you’re coming out of someplace close like SEA, you’re not going to want to make the commute more than twice a month. Once you get some seniority (or you’re just lucky w/ trip trading), you can get trips that start or end (or both) with deadheads to another city. I usually only go up once a month and fly one big trip (or series of trips) unless I have trips with deadheads. I’m at about the 60% point for seniority in ANC and things are very manageable for me. I was able to make it work even when I was at 90% and stuck on reserve.

Even as a junior guy there, the options to massage your schedule are pretty good. If you’re on reserve, there are many reserve schedules with one big block of work days and more with two blocks.

Typical trips from ANC are to Asia with a small number to the lower 48 and back or occasionally on to Europe. The best commuting scenario (other than deadheads) would be a late afternoon/evening departure. You could arrive on the jumpseat that morning, go to the hotel for 6-8 hours and show for your trip that same day. Worst case is a morning departure. You’ll be arriving in ANC the day before and have about 24 hours until your show time (not a bad thing in the summer if you like to fish or hike).

Most trips return to ANC around noon local time. The flights to the lower 48 you’ll want to jumpseat on leave around 1500L. So, you hang for a few hours and then start making your way home. The nice thing about jumpseating to ANC is that the bunks on 777 and MD-11s are unused on those flights. You can jump in the rack and get some decent sleep going in either direction. Worst case, the MD-11 has no bunk and you’re sleeping on a floor mat. That’s still way better than any first class seat on a pax carrier and the food is better.

Eventually, when you can hold a decent schedule, you don’t even need a crash pad. Hotels have cheap crew rates and 2-3 nights per month (I usually buy one night unless it’s a training month) are still cheaper than most crash pads. The hotels provide transpo to the airport so you don’t have to manage a car up there. You can imagine that hassle that comes with leaving a car parked in ANC for a week or two unused while you’re on days off. Overall, my commuting expenses are far less in ANC than they were when I commuted to MEM.

Being a new hire commuting to ANC won’t be pain free. Unless things totally stagnate, I think the pain would be manageable and reasonably short. Going to MEM as a new-hire with ANC as a follow-on after you’ve been here a few years is another option. If your family situation isn’t conducive to you being gone for 1-2 weeks each time you leave, then commuting to ANC probably isn’t for you.

Maybe more info than you were looking for but hopefully it helps.

JW

[BolterKing]

Weed,

Great answer, thanks. Doesn't sound bad at all if you're already on the west coast.