C-17 Pilot Charged in Training Jump Death

[Danger41]

https://www.af.mil/information/bios/bio.asp?bioID=5950

For those wondering who that is.

[lj35driver]

Is there any wonder considering he still ripped wings from people despite the recommendations of SIBs/AIBs? A guy in my office is friends with Jared and said the other pilot decided on separation in lieu of Court Martial. Anyone have any detail on that?

[DirkDiggler]

Butters thanks for the additional info. Hope the pilot gets cleared of this bullshit, seems like this sort of thing is becoming more prevalent across the AF lately.

[Fud]

Is there any wonder considering he still ripped wings from people despite the recommendations of SIBs/AIBs? A guy in my office is friends with Jared and said the other pilot decided on separation in lieu of Court Martial. Anyone have any detail on that?

Separating in Lieu of Court Martial is not considered a felony conviction, but it is basically the same discharge rate considering it is a dismissal. If Jared wants to call me, I'll be up for a few more hours. I am OCONUS tomorrow and cannot be reached after that. He needs to hire a civilian lawyer. His ADC, no matter how good she is, cannot give him a fair shake against the government. Tell him to PM me, and I'll give him my phone number to tell him why.

[Dupe]

Separating in Lieu of Court Martial is not considered a felony conviction, but it is basically the same discharge rate considering it is a dismissal. If Jared wants to call me, I'll be up for a few more hours. I am OCONUS tomorrow and cannot be reached after that. He needs to hire a civilian lawyer. His ADC, no matter how good she is, cannot give him a fair shake against the government. Tell him to PM me, and I'll give him my phone number to tell him why.

I was just BSing with an ADC lawyer last night, and he believed that hiring outside counsel was generally a waste of money. In his view, competent outside counsel is almost always prior JA corps attorneys thus just as good as the ADC counsel. Worse, folks hire counsel who may be unfamiliar with military justice and that ends up hurting their case. He also noted that the military seems to be willing to bring more cases to trial when the evidence simply isn't there, and the Air Force is leading that trend. If it were me, I would decidedly hire UCMJ-smart counsel.

Fud, are you able to elaborate on your experience? Guys need to know how the justice system works / doesn't work in case they ever find themselves getting their rights read to them. We're good about LFE lessons learned and career info, but bad about passing down info on what to do when the boss reads you the card that starts with "You have the right to remain silent...."

[Guest]

Consider a KIO here. You probably wouldn't want people talking about your case of your ass was in this crack.

[Fud]

I was just BSing with an ADC lawyer last night, and he believed that hiring outside counsel was generally a waste of money. In his view, competent outside counsel is almost always prior JA corps attorneys thus just as good as the ADC counsel. Worse, folks hire counsel who may be unfamiliar with military justice and that ends up hurting their case. He also noted that the military seems to be willing to bring more cases to trial when the evidence simply isn't there, and the Air Force is leading that trend. If it were me, I would decidedly hire UCMJ-smart counsel.

Fud, are you able to elaborate on your experience? Guys need to know how the justice system works / doesn't work in case they ever find themselves getting their rights read to them. We're good about LFE lessons learned and career info, but bad about passing down info on what to do when the boss reads you the card that starts with "You have the right to remain silent...."

Dupe,

It really depends on your ADC, but most of them are overworked and do not have time to concentrate on your particular case until days before. This will be the case with a civilian military defense counsel, but they are usually more versed in the UCMJ than an ADC is. Rule of thumb should be, if you ever find yourself needing a lawyer, you need to hire the best one you can. You may be out 30-50K for a GCM, but it will be worth it when your are found innocent of all the charges. Basically, you need people who know the UCMJ but no longer belong to the military in any way. This allows them to fight much harder for your case.

The powers that be in this case want a conviction so it will appear they are doing something about the death of other military personnel. While the PIC is ini charge, I highly doubt he did anything negligent to lead to the loss of life that caused this debacle in the first place. If Axle is found guilty, he will have a felony conviction on his record for life, and this will usually be followed by a dismissal (=dishonorable discharge) and possible jail time. I'm not sure which article of the UCMJ he violated, but each article carries a maximum sentence.

If you look at someone like Michael Waddington or GSL Attorneys, you will see rock solid representation along with results. Most of their cases these days deal with sexual assault, and I'm sure they would get a favorable verdict for Axle. I wish him the best, and hope the results are published in the Air Force Crimes, especially if he is innocent.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Fud

[chim richalds]

I have to think that Allardice is involved in this somehow. I bet he's licking his chops at the prospect of crucifying this guy. I don't know you Axle, but you're in my prayers man, this is total bs.

[Hacker]

I was just BSing with an ADC lawyer last night, and he believed that hiring outside counsel was generally a waste of money. In his view, competent outside counsel is almost always prior JA corps attorneys thus just as good as the ADC counsel. Worse, folks hire counsel who may be unfamiliar with military justice and that ends up hurting their case. He also noted that the military seems to be willing to bring more cases to trial when the evidence simply isn't there, and the Air Force is leading that trend. If it were me, I would decidedly hire UCMJ-smart counsel.

Fud, are you able to elaborate on your experience? Guys need to know how the justice system works / doesn't work in case they ever find themselves getting their rights read to them. We're good about LFE lessons learned and career info, but bad about passing down info on what to do when the boss reads you the card that starts with "You have the right to remain silent...."

If the ADC said that, he's smoking crack. The guys who are ADCs aren't veteran former SJAs, they are the junior guys. ADCs are like public defenders -- they're over-loaded with cases, and can't spend the kind of time on any one case that a civilian attorney can. In addition, ADCs generally don't have the depth of experience that a good former-JAG civilian attorney will. I've seen it in action personally, and not only could the ex-SJA civilian lawyers run circles around the SJAs they were opposing, they were also doing a healthy bit of teaching to the poor ADCs who were assisting them. No comparison, in my book.

For anyone who ever has the opportunity to be represented by legal counsel in proceedings against the US Gov, I highly highly recommend hiring civilian representation in addition to retaining the services of the ADC.

[pcola]

I was just BSing with an ADC lawyer last night, and he believed that hiring outside counsel was generally a waste of money. In his view, competent outside counsel is almost always prior JA corps attorneys thus just as good as the ADC counsel. Worse, folks hire counsel who may be unfamiliar with military justice and that ends up hurting their case. He also noted that the military seems to be willing to bring more cases to trial when the evidence simply isn't there, and the Air Force is leading that trend. If it were me, I would decidedly hire UCMJ-smart counsel.

Fud, are you able to elaborate on your experience? Guys need to know how the justice system works / doesn't work in case they ever find themselves getting their rights read to them. We're good about LFE lessons learned and career info, but bad about passing down info on what to do when the boss reads you the card that starts with "You have the right to remain silent...."

Sounds like a teenager POV. Not you, Dupe, but whoever you were BSing with. What I mean by teenager POV is a person that knows what they know, and is confident in what they know, but due to inexperience, they have no idea of the implications of what they don't know. Am I making sense?

[Azimuth]

I have to think that Allardice is involved in this somehow. I bet he's licking his chops at the prospect of crucifying this guy. I don't know you Axle, but you're in my prayers man, this is total bs.

He's not the 18 AF/CC anymore, so why would he care?

[Dupe]

Sounds like a teenager POV. Not you, Dupe, but whoever you were BSing with. What I mean by teenager POV is a person that knows what they know, and is confident in what they know, but due to inexperience, they have no idea of the implications of what they don't know. Am I making sense?

Oh, I hear ya brother. I would definitely hire outside counsel for any legal proceedings that I hope I'm never involved it. For what it's worth, this guy was a prior civilian criminal defense attorney before entering the Army. The bulk of his work now is defending sexual assault cases and ground ROE violations. He said that he's seen outside counsel try to take a case to trial when a more than reasonable deal is on the table because the hired gun gets paid more if the case goes to trial. It's been so blatant that he's had to threaten notifying with ABA about such actions. This is all caveated with the fact that the guy's average client is an E-5 soldier.

I'm sure most folks on this board are both mentally and financially able to research and retain effective counsel. Just know that some of your young troops may be hiring bus-stop advertising attorneys instead. Buyer beware...you get what you pay for. Bigger than that, I think we're really bad about mentoring guys to say "I would like an attorney present" when a commander or investigator starts reading them an Article 31 rights card. We're taught from a young age that if you mess-up, you fess-up and take your lumps. It's even a quality that we highly value as aviators in the debrief. Turns out, that may not be in your best interest in legal matters. If you have experience with or have seen the horrors of the military legal system, you owe it to your young folks to pass on lessons learned once cases are closed.

[Guest]

You are a fool if you do not exercise your rights immediately after being advised of them. Do it. Every time.

[Hacker]

We're taught from a young age that if you mess-up, you fess-up and take your lumps. It's even a quality that we highly value as aviators in the debrief. Turns out, that may not be in your best interest in legal matters. If you have experience with or have seen the horrors of the military legal system, you owe it to your young folks to pass on lessons learned once cases are closed.

That's an enormously important point.

What I especially love are Commanders who get angry when people lawyer up. As if, when threatened with UCMJ action or having their wings taken, they're just going to open up, pour their heart out, mea culpa, and everything will be all right. All will be forgiven, right?

[Sierra Hotel]

As a side note... Gen Johns was the brilliant C-5 pilot who deployed the GROUND spoilers in flight (while in the traffic pattern). These effectively dump all the lift from the wings.

[Fud]

Bigger than that, I think we're really bad about mentoring guys to say "I would like an attorney present" when a commander or investigator starts reading them an Article 31 rights card. We're taught from a young age that if you mess-up, you fess-up and take your lumps. It's even a quality that we highly value as aviators in the debrief. Turns out, that may not be in your best interest in legal matters. If you have experience with or have seen the horrors of the military legal system, you owe it to your young folks to pass on lessons learned once cases are closed.

I don't think you will ever see this type of mentoring since commanders and OSI are looking for any reason to nail you from the get go. I go with the saying "innocent until accused". You will continue to be questioned even when you lawyer up. The best thing you can do is exercise your constitutional rights. When you are being read your rights under Article 31, you are suspected of a crime, and you need to DEMAND to have a legal representative present when you are questioned. If either individual (Commander/OSI) continues questioning you, respectfully ask to leave unless you are being detained. The last resort should be to remain silent, and all questioning should cease IAW MC&L. The only question you should ask at all is what you are suspected of doing.

You are a fool if you do not exercise your rights immediately after being advised of them. Do it. Every time.

Huge Fucking 2

That's an enormously important point.

What I especially love are Commanders who get angry when people lawyer up. As if, when threatened with UCMJ action or having their wings taken, they're just going to open up, pour their heart out, mea culpa, and everything will be all right. All will be forgiven, right?

If after you are read your rights, document all interactions with your commander and anyone else in the supervisory chain of command. If they are unprofessional, write an MFR and retain for your day in court (if it comes to that). I hate it when commanders do this. I had a guy in my former unit who was charged with rape. He had consensual sex with this girl multiple times beforehand, but turned her down one night at a party for someone prettier. The girl had nothing happen to her, while the military member was under investigation for 18 months. Upon being exonerated of the rape charge, the squadron commander gave him an LOR for drinking the night before duty. I wrote a character statement for him confirming that the military member had only three beers, and was given a ride home because he felt a slight buzz. This guy's career was wrecked simply for being under investigation. Again, "innocent until accused".

I wish someone would come along and save him like Robin Olds did for the tanker pilot who was nearly taken to court martial for breaking ROEs, even though he saved an F-4 pilot's life.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Fud

[sputnik]

If the ADC said that, he's smoking crack. The guys who are ADCs aren't veteran former SJAs, they are the junior guys. ADCs are like public defenders -- they're over-loaded with cases, and can't spend the kind of time on any one case that a civilian attorney can. In addition, ADCs generally don't have the depth of experience that a good former-JAG civilian attorney will. I've seen it in action personally, and not only could the ex-SJA civilian lawyers run circles around the SJAs they were opposing, they were also doing a healthy bit of teaching to the poor ADCs who were assisting them. No comparison, in my book.

For anyone who ever has the opportunity to be represented by legal counsel in proceedings against the US Gov, I highly highly recommend hiring civilian representation in addition to retaining the services of the ADC.

Interesting, are you sure about that? I was always given the impression that it was difficult to become an ADC, you had to be both experienced and good. I've very limited personal experience--a single admin sep board, but the ADC handed the 2 JAGs their butts. It was sort of funny to watch.

That said, years back had a friend facing a pretty ugly (and BS) FEB where it was made very clear to him they were after his wings. Finally hired a lawyer--Bud Day. Who made a single, short phone call and the whole thing went quietly away.

[Guest]

That said, years back had a friend facing a pretty ugly (and BS) FEB where it was made very clear to him they were after his wings. Finally hired a lawyer--Bud Day. Who made a single, short phone call and the whole thing went quietly away.

Word.

[Hacker]

Interesting, are you sure about that? I was always given the impression that it was difficult to become an ADC, you had to be both experienced and good. I've very limited personal experience--a single admin sep board, but the ADC handed the 2 JAGs their butts. It was sort of funny to watch.

While I'm not "sure about that", unfortunately I've had a lot more personal experience with ADCs than that. While their experience and abilities run the gamut, they are not as experienced as the actual SJAs (theoretically, at least -- I'm sure there are outliers in both parts of the job). Think about it -- most ADCs are Captains and SJAs are Majs, Lt Cols, and up. Again, the real issue with ADCs is that they are public defenders who are many times dealing with a good number of cases simultaneously and can't dedicate all of their efforts to your case.

But, the constant is that neither of them (ADCs or SJAs) can hold a match to a good civilian attorney who was formerly an SJA.

Regarding Bud Day, the only experience I've had was as a recorder at an FEB for an IFF washout. His style was very aggressive and he did, indeed, completely tear apart the case and get his client reinstated in the IFF program. His understanding of how the AF training system worked -- especially with regard to how the course training standards for grading worked and his knowledge that IPs can sometimes write comments about graded maneuvers that do not directly support what the CTS says for a particular grade -- was key to his courtroom victory when I observed him. It was quite impressive. His overall style was very aggressive.

That being said, my understanding from speaking to other attorneys who have worked with him (or even against him) is that his style is becoming decreasingly effective in the current AF climate. Reportedly, his opening statement usually revolved around him tossing his Medal of Honor coin on the ground in front of the board or jury, and saying "there are two sides to every coin....." It was apparently heavily reliant on the respect value he personally had as a MoH recipient rather than a cunning strategy as an attorney (combined, of course, with a very type-A aggressive style overall).

Based on a good number of people I've seen in the AF these days who would potentially be board or jury members, not only would many not have any idea who Bud Day was or what he'd done, but many would also not be impressed even by those things he's done. In other words, that respect value is decreasing, EVEN amongst flight-suit wearers (such as might populate an FEB). A non-tactical background pilot I flew with last summer went on a tirade about what a rogue Joe Jackson was for landing his C-123 at a closed airstrip against orders and that he should never have been awarded a MoH for such a blatant violation of flight discipline...so you never know what some folks might find of value.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Hacker

[LockheedFix]

The more I think about this whole thing, the madder I get. I've told the Army "no" several times when they wanted to do something that was in the gray area of authorized/not authorized, but I always assumed that at worst a Q3 was on the line. Now that the AF is threatening my freedom for making a questionable call, no fucking way. I urge all you airdrop IPs out there to tell your students about this case and make sure they are fully aware of the repercussions of any mistakes in this CYA Air Force we are in.

[Guest]

Hacker, there were plenty of pussies back in the day, too.

Bud demanded the respect he deserved. He earned it. And not just as a POW.

None of us know for sure if any style would be fool proof today. However, if you needed help and could hire the Bud Day you witnessed...would you? I would. No hesitation.

Whatever the scenario for this guy let's hope he uses good judgement and gets a good lawyer, ADC or otherwise. This sounds like bullshit.

[Hacker]

Hacker, there were plenty of pussies back in the day, too.

Bud demanded the respect he deserved. He earned it. And not just as a POW.

None of us know for sure if any style would be fool proof today. However, if you needed help and could hire the Bud Day you witnessed...would you? I would. No hesitation.

Without a doubt. I actually DID try and hire him, but he wasn't available when I needed representation.

[tac airlifter]

A non-tactical background pilot I flew with last summer went on a tirade about what a rogue Joe Jackson was for landing his C-123 at a closed airstrip against orders and that he should never have been awarded a MoH for such a blatant violation of flight discipline...so you never know what some folks might find of value.

Some people need to be slapped.

[czecksikhs]

I heard from a bud tangentially involved in the case that the prosecution successfully subpoenaed his SIB statement and is using it as evidence against him. Anybody else seen/heard anything about this?

Edit: Grammar

Edited July 27, 2012 by czecksikhs

[BFM this]

Doubt it.

The precedent would kill off safety privilege as we know it.