C-17 Pilot Charged in Training Jump Death

[Fud]

Sure as shit it will.

Despite the loss of life, thankfully it ended well for those just trying to do the right thing. The after-effects this will have on our airdrop community are unfortunate. Our TTP's will suffer because of this series of unfortunate events.

This.

Jared, I'm glad it worked out in your favor. I'm curious how he feels about this system as well. I'd hope to PCS as soon as possible if I were him.

[Toro]

The only thing the news outlets are currently reporting is that the jury is deliberating.

Story here.

[Butters]

Great article considering it is from AF Times. I honestly can't belive the Army was willing to throw Jared under the bus like that... Oh, wait, yes I can.

When asked why the jumpmaster and drop zone safety officer were not also being held accountable for Campion’s death, Ambrose said that since an Air Force aircraft was involved, Foley was required to follow Air Force protocol, which dictates that he make decisions based on information from the aircraft and control tower, not the drop zone safety officer.

[Day Man]

I'd like to add on something here...

As M2 mentioned earlier, if there is any question about whether you are being held liable for something, demand counsel first. This could be for something as simple as a Form 97 regarding a bird strike. I know it sounds ridiculous, but prosecution can and will use any available info against you.

In this case, the judge granted "Special Prosecution" access to the SIB. Nothing ever came of it, but realize that your once privileged statement might not stay that way. CYA fellas.

[Hacker]

What's sad is things like this are going to start affecting people's decision making downrange. All this fiasco is going to do, regardless of the outcome, is make people even more spring loaded to call a "no-drop" whether in training or in the combat zone. Maybe that's OK most of the time, but there will come a time when it could have a negative impact on the mission when it didn't have to come to that. We're in the business of war and people will get hurt, there's no way around that. How far will the risk-averse pendulum swing?

Given the types of "combat" the USAF has been engaged in for the last 6-9 years, I think there is still quite a ways to go. Most leaders in the flying community are trying to duel each other for who can make the most conservative decision "just to be safe".

Until we are in a situation where taking that conservative answer actually costs troops lives, the pendulum will continue to swing toward total risk aversion.

[disgruntledemployee]

I'd like to add on something here...

As M2 mentioned earlier, if there is any question about whether you are being held liable for something, demand counsel first. This could be for something as simple as a Form 97 regarding a bird strike. I know it sounds ridiculous, but prosecution can and will use any available info against you.

In this case, the judge granted "Special Prosecution" access to the SIB. Nothing ever came of it, but realize that your once privileged statement might not stay that way. CYA fellas.

They got the SIB? SIB, not the AIB? The same SIB that is for safety reasons only? The SIB, where witnesses may be given privilege? The SIB?

Thats fu cked up.

Edited December 15, 2012 by disgruntledemployee

[ThreeHoler]

I'd like to add on something here...

In this case, the judge granted "Special Prosecution" access to the SIB. Nothing ever came of it, but realize that your once privileged statement might not stay that way. CYA fellas.

FYSA, the AMC Form 97 is not a privileged witness statement.

However, a judge giving access to the privileged SIB info is fucked up.

[ExBoneOSO]

I guess "privilege" depends on who's granting it....

[Day Man]

They got the SIB? SIB, not the AIB? The same SIB that is for safety reasons only? The SIB, where witnesses may be given privilege? The SIB?

Thats fu cked up.

Yes. Like I said, there's a lot of legal loopholes to jump through, but it can be done. Talk to your ADC.

FYSA, the AMC Form 97 is not a privileged witness statement.

Exactly...counsel can(should) be invoked before being required to fill one out.

[Hacker]

However, a judge giving access to the privileged SIB info is fucked up.

There is only one side to the 'privilege' contract, just like a lot of things with the military.

[Flare]

Well, guess I won't ever be giving an interview to a SIB guy now. Unbelievable (well, it isn't, but it should be).

[disgruntledemployee]

Yes. Like I said, there's a lot of legal loopholes to jump through, but it can be done. Talk to your ADC.

I'm guessing JAG can use the SIB for prosecuting crimes? Wow. If the AF makes an accident into a crime, then everything said under the guise of preventing accidents is used to lop off someone's head.

Out

[Day Man]

I'm guessing JAG can use the SIB for prosecuting crimes? Wow. If the AF makes an accident into a crime, then everything said under the guise of preventing accidents is used to lop off someone's head.

Out

I'm not sure...I'm just some asshole on the internet. Talk to your ADC for the actual legalities of it.

[SFGuy]

For all those Pilots out there Air Drop qualified. Here are a few pointers. During the Pilot brief with the Jumpmasters and DZSO make sure you specify the DZ boundaries according to the AF regs, not the other way around. The Army will screw you if they can. Confirm that the DZSO has conducted at least 3 ADZSO operations in the last six months. Meaning that he assisted a senior DZSO with three jumps. If he has not, and has not been a DZSO prior to your jump, ask for a current DZSO. Confirm that all Jumpmasters and static safety's are current. I know we let noncurrent Jumpmasters release Jumpers to become current, however in order for that to happen the noncurrent jump master is watched by the official Jumpmaster for that pass. And most of all, if the DZSO sounds like its his first time on the radio it probably is, which means he has no idea what he is supposed to be saying and not saying, If he sounds like that, I personally would not drop based on the information from the DZSO is unclear. well Thanks to all those pilots that supported me in the past, I'm glad I was able to be there for Jared and return the favor. Take care............"No Drop" :)

[TacAirCoug]

Given the types of "combat" the USAF has been engaged in for the last 6-9 years, I think there is still quite a ways to go. Most leaders in the flying community are trying to duel each other for who can make the most conservative decision "just to be safe".

Until we are in a situation where taking that conservative answer actually costs troops lives, the pendulum will continue to swing toward total risk aversion.

I don't know, I've done some short notice drops to far flung FOBs because the grunts were running out of food & ammo in a hurry. I don't know how low they actually were on supplies, but if they were depending on my bundles to keep them in the fight, and I called a no-drop and RTB'd, I could imagine a not-unlikely scenario in the current fight where my no-drop led to a loss of life because they ran out of firepower. I just don't think it's too hard to get into a situation like that in the environment the ground forces are operating in right now. All it takes is one guy worrying about being the next Jared and waving off.

[Wolf424]

Great news. I think anyone who has ever dropped personnel has thought about this happening to them. (someone getting seriously hurt or killed)

"No Drops" are free...and on training flights, you have to ask "Is someone going to die if we don't drop this?" I agree that this could impact guys decision making in the future. It would've been even worse if he was found guilty.

The Army will screw you if they can.

Checks. Especially when they jump after RL and the crew gets the blame for the off DZ drop.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Wolf424

[Prozac]

Damn. Sorry safety guy. I want you to be able to do your job. But I'm not going to be able to chat with you anymore. I'll miss our talks, but you understand, right? Congrats Jared.....sorry you had to be the poster child for a lot of what's fucked up about our Air Force.

[MooseDriver1]

Have wanted to post on this for a while, but didn't want to provide ammunition for any side until the case was over. Still somewhat concerned, with the things that have happened, who knows if Double Jeopardy even matters!

Avoidable mistakes were made on ALL parts. Unfortunate, but it is the truth. Were they criminal in nature though? I don't believe so and I think some great leadership stepped forward during the case to ensure that this didnt go out of focus. Axle is a good dude in a bad situation and a guilty conviction would've been a travesty.

As for accountability, a lot of it needs to be directed at our own community. There is no formal C-17 course that instructs personnel airdrop with live bodies. Altus syllabus incorporates every AD platform except for the one most likely to lead to a malfunction and potential fatality. Dry passes are completed, but there is no training for the JM briefing, which is the base for affecting safe personnel drops. For pointy noses, have you ever been told to drop live ordinance in a combat area that you haven't previously trained on at the range?

Altus doesn't have the Army bodies to put on the DZ a couple times a week, so it's not realistic to hold them to that expectation. LM syllabi have figured this out and restrict LMAD grads from dropping PE until they have dropped live bodies with IL supervision to a P level. Don't even get me started on the lack of HALO training!

To put it all in perspective, a "qualified" crew could have been sent on this JA/ATT with no supervision that had never completed a PE pass with actual jumpers going out the doors. That might sound unrealistic, but lots of CPAD types don't get the opportunities with deployments, PCO, SOS, Masters and the standard 5 day mission once a month if not more. It's much easier to log the bean in your Phase sim or on a 2-ship dry pass at the aux field. Then they get sent to ACAD where they don't build those skills and are full up. The available TTP's and guidance continues to improve, but a lot of PE AD is experience and being knowledgable with the jumpers TTP's.

As for the discussion about AIB/SIB, this was an Army loss of life, therefore the AF was only a contributor to the Army investigation per the Safety center.

I feel awful for Sgt Campion's family and friends and wish this avoidable tragedy could've been avoided. I also have a lot of sympathy for the crew (both in the air and on DZ) who have to deal with the outcome and the reflections about what could've been done differently. I can only imagine how difficult that has been and will continue to be. Hopefully, the lessons learned from this will at least prevent the same thing happening in the future. To date, there has been nothing distributed command-wide to that effect. All I've seen is folks willing to get rid of their AD qual and pointing fingers without all the information that might significantly change how they feel.

[TheGuardGuy]

FYI - you can request copies of "The Military Commander and the Law" from the JAG folks at Maxwell, we ordered about 20 copies a few years back and they sent them for free. You can also download it PDF off the portal. Good book to be familiar with, or have handy just in case.

[Guest]

For pointy noses, have you ever been told to drop live ordinance in a combat area that you haven't previously trained on at the range?

Yes. It happens a lot actually, especially if you include "only done once before" in the training category. This often causes misses but not loss of life. Probably not a great comparison for what you're talking about but you make a good point wrt training.

Has training been addressed in the safety or UCMJ investigations?

[jazzdude]

To put it all in perspective, a "qualified" crew could have been sent on this JA/ATT with no supervision that had never completed a PE pass with actual jumpers going out the doors. That might sound unrealistic, but lots of CPAD types don't get the opportunities with deployments, PCO, SOS, Masters and the standard 5 day mission once a month if not more. It's much easier to log the bean in your Phase sim or on a 2-ship dry pass at the aux field. Then they get sent to ACAD where they don't build those skills and are full up. The available TTP's and guidance continues to improve, but a lot of PE AD is experience and being knowledgable with the jumpers TTP's.

Not a hypothetical...My first A-Code was a 2-ship JA/ATT as the MC doing personnel drops at Benning. Never dropped actual personnel as a CP, and this was my third airdrop sortie ouside of Altus. Oh, and the other jet's AC was my ACAD partner. Needless to say, a lot of time planning, chair flying and talking with experienced airdroppers took place prior to the sortie.

[Toro]

In this case, the judge granted "Special Prosecution" access to the SIB. Nothing ever came of it, but realize that your once privileged statement might not stay that way. CYA fellas.

What's your source for this? I don't see it in the article, but if it's valid, I'd like to follow up.

[Flare]

What's your source for this? I don't see it in the article, but if it's valid, I'd like to follow up.

2 same.

[Fud]

FYI - you can request copies of "The Military Commander and the Law" from the JAG folks at Maxwell, we ordered about 20 copies a few years back and they sent them for free. You can also download it PDF off the portal. Good book to be familiar with, or have handy just in case.

This is a resource that was never passed around at my first unit when I needed it. Luckily, I had read the Manual for Courts Martial (MCM), The Military Commander & the Law, The Rules of Evidence, and anything else I could get my hands on. They are invaluable resources to say the least, and I was happy I had the time to read them before the point I needed them.

The unfortunate thing is that we are not briefed on these things at the time we are commissioned, or at least I was not. Also, how to handle being read your rights, etc...It all sounds pretty simple, but once you're in that situation I would add that you lawyer up immediately and respectfully, refuse to consent to any searches of any kind, and do not talk to anyone about your situation. If it ends up at a GCM, you can rest assured that the prosecution will talk to you friends and use them as witnesses against you.

[Day Man]

What's your source for this? I don't see it in the article, but if it's valid, I'd like to follow up.

I was there...it happened on Tuesday, and I confirmed with legal folks on Friday.