ThreeHoler Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 Not a full-blown real example, but here is the jist: Standard form 97 header (or whatever fighter dudes call it) info like the day and tail number, and a synopsis something like, "smoke filled the cockpit so we landed." Factual, to the point. This. I have always recommend the following AMC Form 97 technique: "Problem X occurred. Crew applied checklist actions and landed. No damage or injuries noted."
ThreeHoler Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 No I'm not. I sat there and heard it first hand from Safety Center reps. They teach that SIBs should not offer privilege to everyone (makes sense as not everyone needs it) and second that SIBs should try to conduct interviews without offering privilege at first. However, each SIB is different. So, if any of you get involved in a SIB sitting at the unfriendly side of the table, think about whether you need privilege. And if you think you want to talk to counsel before hand, tell them. True, SIBs don't care about counsel so don't be surprised if you ask for it first and they say its not necessary. There, fruit salad. Out My FSO course was several years ago now, but the way I was trained is pretty simple: - Ground/weapons safety investigators rarely extend privilege, unless they are certain the witness will not provide a statement without privilege. - Flight safety investigators routinely extend privilege to aircrew, but they normally do no extend privilege to ground personnel unless the investigator deems it necessary. I had heard rumblings earlier this year that the course has changed more to what disgruntledemployee mentions.
LockheedFix Posted December 16, 2012 Posted December 16, 2012 My FSO course was several years ago now, but the way I was trained is pretty simple: - Ground/weapons safety investigators rarely extend privilege, unless they are certain the witness will not provide a statement without privilege. - Flight safety investigators routinely extend privilege to aircrew, but they normally do no extend privilege to ground personnel unless the investigator deems it necessary. I had heard rumblings earlier this year that the course has changed more to what disgruntledemployee mentions. I'm pretty sure privilege only exists in flight safety. When I went through in 2010 they taught us not to offer privilege and only give it if the witness wouldn't talk or if they asked for it. They also said no one would ever fault an FSO for giving privilege, so I would just walk in and have guys sign a statement saying their statement was privileged anyway.
M2 Posted December 17, 2012 Posted December 17, 2012 Guys The other pilot's situation has yet to be resolved, so hold off on the speculation. I've gotten word that after Axle's acquittal, 18 AF has dropped its case against her; but her future has still yet to be determined. There is obviously more information that cannot be shared at this time, but once things have been resolved her side of the story will be posted. Jared was not the only subject of this witch hunt, so don't jump to conclusions until all the facts are known! Cheers! M2 2
Napoleon_Tanerite Posted December 19, 2012 Posted December 19, 2012 Since we fly, I think it's important we find an attorney who is well versed in bird law and other lawyerings 1
Butters Posted December 19, 2012 Posted December 19, 2012 Did anyone go the the Wing CC call for Aircrew on Monday at McChord? Currious how he was trying to spin the "go ahead and do you jobs and don't worry about us trying to CM you for mistakes and accidents".
Azimuth Posted December 19, 2012 Posted December 19, 2012 Did anyone go the the Wing CC call for Aircrew on Monday at McChord? Currious how he was trying to spin the "go ahead and do you jobs and don't worry about us trying to CM you for mistakes and accidents". Knowing him, probably poorly.
Day Man Posted December 19, 2012 Posted December 19, 2012 Since we fly, I think it's important we find an attorney who is well versed in bird law and other lawyerings I'll take your advice into cooperation. Filibuster.
BQZip01 Posted December 19, 2012 Posted December 19, 2012 However, a judge giving access to the privileged SIB info is fucked up. 2!!! WTF?!
moosepileit Posted December 20, 2012 Posted December 20, 2012 Lemme guess, we had to burn the village, to save it.
Napoleon_Tanerite Posted December 20, 2012 Posted December 20, 2012 Lemme guess, we had to burn the village, to save it. Isn't that Air Force standard? Hence the latest inquisition into any morale materials?
Broke Posted December 20, 2012 Posted December 20, 2012 No I'm not. I sat there and heard it first hand from Safety Center reps. They teach that SIBs should not offer privilege to everyone (makes sense as not everyone needs it) and second that SIBs should try to conduct interviews without offering privilege at first. However, each SIB is different. So, if any of you get involved in a SIB sitting at the unfriendly side of the table, think about whether you need privilege. And if you think you want to talk to counsel before hand, tell them. True, SIBs don't care about counsel so don't be surprised if you ask for it first and they say its not necessary. There, fruit salad. Out Agree with Toro. This was not taught when I went through (Apr '10). There was however a Major with whom I got in a verbal altercation after he asked if he could attempt the above "in order to help out the AIB". Like others have said when it come to privilege, ask not, get not.
BB Stacker Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 I'll take your advice into cooperation. Filibuster. I'll just regress, because I feel I've made myself perfectly redundant.
Hacker Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 a Major with whom I got in a verbal altercation after he asked if he could attempt the above "in order to help out the AIB". How is it that we have raised aviators that think like this?
Droopy Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 Apparently we went to different courses. Just so it's not lost - always ask for privilege, and lawyer up when in doubt. Toro, Having done a few SIBs recently, it's not the Safety course teaching this. When the board first sits down and takes over from the ISB, the Safety Center rep gives you a lot of guidance. What I've been told on the last two boards I was on (Pilot member on one, IO on the other) was exactly what was stated above. Don't give priviledge to everyone, have specific documentable reasons why you granted it when you do, and not to grant it unless requested. BL: Ask for priviledge up front. If denied, I'd recommend going straight to a lawyer... Droopy
Toro Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 BL: Ask for priviledge up front. If denied, I'd recommend going straight to a lawyer... Damn right.
Napoleon_Tanerite Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 BL: Ask for priviledge up front. If denied, I'd recommend going straight to a lawyer... Droopy I've heard this same lesson repeated MANY, MANY, MANY times over, not just over safety privilege. If you think you may even MAYBE, POSSIBLY MIGHT be getting "looked at" about something that has happened, ask to be read your rights, and seek counsel. It's in our nature to try to "be helpful" but unfortunately I've seen several people both in the military and civilian world get burned badly by statements they made trying to be "helpful" without counsel present. Unfortunately in today's world, don't ever assume ANYONE has your back. 3
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