C-17 Pilot Charged in Training Jump Death

[Shakey]

If I had a nickel for everytime an army guy gave me bad winds, either 180 degrees out or just within limits....

Two

Good luck brother.

[HoHum]

I didn't land off the Drop zone, nor did I steer my chute off the Drop zone. I landed on the asphalt next to a building the was near the fence and building that was near the Chute truck. Depending on who you ask, some say I was off some say I avoided obstacles. I was briefed that the drop zone had the following obstacles. Main Post was to the east, a mount site was to the west, a fence and power lines were to the North. all of which are considered obstacles within the surveyed drop zone. This pilot did nothing wrong. The winds on the ground exceeded 15knots and the Army DZSO was taking the winds from the riggers. The riggers were reading the winds while sitting on the back of the chute truck which was a large box truck surrounded by two other trucks. The winds should have been taken 20 meters from any object that could give incorrect readings. The Army is at fault here not the pilot. How is the pilot supposed to calculate the correct PI if the wind readings he was given from the ground were wrong. in fact the winds that the Pilot were given were 8 knots but the true winds were above 15 based on the fully inflated wind sock that was caught on video.

So....this pops in out of the blue. First post.

The details are very believable, but can anybody verify?

Second - has anybody pulled the survey off the ZAR? Does it check with this?

[Hacker]

I didn't land off the Drop zone, nor did I steer my chute off the Drop zone. I landed on the asphalt next to a building the was near the fence and building that was near the Chute truck. Depending on who you ask, some say I was off some say I avoided obstacles.

So are you the jumper from the 5th pass?

[Day Man]

How many are rated?

3 radiators

4 med

2 MX (I think)

1 comm/cyber

So....this pops in out of the blue. First post.

The details are very believable, but can anybody verify?

verified

Edited December 14, 2012 by day man

[Butters]

What time are they starting tomorrow? Some of us tried to come today but were interupted by the active shooter exercise.

[Day Man]

I'm guessing 0800. You can come in anytime, just be quiet, turn off cell phones, etc.

[Guest RAB]

I understand that you are all trying to stand behind and support a fellow serviceman. However, I would like to remind you all that there was another person involved in this event, and that person is no longer with us… potentially due to an error that was made on the part of Mr. Foley. The person that some of you have referred to as “that dude who died” was someone’s son, someone’s fiancé, someone’s nephew, someone’s friend, someone’s cousin, someone’s grandson. He served his country for 12 years and also served in Afghanistan… he was more than just “some dude”… his name was Francis and he lost more than just his pension or his job. Despite the fact that Mr. Foley is a “great guy” and, as some of you mentioned “a great pilot”, Francis Campion (who is no longer with us) was also a wonderful person and an experienced parachutist. His family grieves the tragedy of this loss and misses him every day. Should Mr. Foley lose his position and his pension due to an error that cost someone else their life, it is a small price for him to pay. He should be happy that he still gets to go home to his family… something that Francis will never do again.

[Butters]

His name is Capt. Foley.

[Guest RAB]

His name is Capt. Foley.

Yes and it was Staff Seargent Francis T. Campion, III.

[M2]

I understand that you are all trying to stand behind and support a fellow serviceman. However, I would like to remind you all that there was another person involved in this event, and that person is no longer with us… potentially due to an error that was made on the part of Mr. Foley. The person that some of you have referred to as “that dude who died” was someone’s son, someone’s fiancé, someone’s nephew, someone’s friend, someone’s cousin, someone’s grandson. He served his country for 12 years and also served in Afghanistan… he was more than just “some dude”… his name was Francis and he lost more than just his pension or his job. Despite the fact that Mr. Foley is a “great guy” and, as some of you mentioned “a great pilot”, Francis Campion (who is no longer with us) was also a wonderful person and an experienced parachutist. His family grieves the tragedy of this loss and misses him every day. Should Mr. Foley lose his position and his pension due to an error that cost someone else their life, it is a small price for him to pay. He should be happy that he still gets to go home to his family… something that Francis will never do again.

So you know all the facts and are certain beyond a reasonable doubt that Capt Foley is guilty as charged?

Please share this detailed knowledge with the rest of the forum as while it is tragic that Francis Campion died, most of us are not convinced Foley was responsible for his death.

[GearMonkey]

I didn't land off the Drop zone. . .

Careful here. We appreciate the info but I'd hate for you to get in trouble with the court. You never know who is watching.

[Guest RAB]

Please re-read my comment, I do not claim to know the facts or be in any position to judge Capt. Foley. I only intend to bring a different perspective to light in this conversation and ask that a little more respect be paid to Francis who, many times throughout this thread, was called "that dude who died" instead of being acknowledged as a person who many people loved and a serviceman who lost his life while serving this country.

No one on this forum has the detailed facts required to make the decision as to whether Capt. Foley is at fault here. Whether he is found innocent or guilty it does not change the fact that a life was lost... It is fair that the facts should be presented and reviewed in order to determine whether an error was made which caused this tragedy, or if it was just a terrible accident.

[Homestar]

No matter how this ends, I think the Army will have a lot more no-drops in the future. All the airdroppers I know consider this a shot across the bow. No more will, "oh nevermind, that was actually an on-DZ drop...cleared for another" lead to another drop.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Homestar

[Champ Kind]

Man they're really coming out of the woodwork in this thread.

[ThreeHoler]

Please re-read my comment, I do not claim to know the facts or be in any position to judge Capt. Foley. I only intend to bring a different perspective to light in this conversation and ask that a little more respect be paid to Francis who, many times throughout this thread, was called "that dude who died" instead of being acknowledged as a person who many people loved and a serviceman who lost his life while serving this country.

No one on this forum has the detailed facts required to make the decision as to whether Capt. Foley is at fault here. Whether he is found innocent or guilty it does not change the fact that a life was lost... It is fair that the facts should be presented and reviewed in order to determine whether an error was made which caused this tragedy, or if it was just a terrible accident.

Would a "him him" be better?

[Guest]

I understand that you are all trying to stand behind and support a fellow serviceman. However, I would like to remind you all that there was another person involved in this event, and that person is no longer with us… potentially due to an error that was made on the part of Mr. Foley. The person that some of you have referred to as “that dude who died” was someone’s son, someone’s fiancé, someone’s nephew, someone’s friend, someone’s cousin, someone’s grandson. He served his country for 12 years and also served in Afghanistan… he was more than just “some dude”… his name was Francis and he lost more than just his pension or his job. Despite the fact that Mr. Foley is a “great guy” and, as some of you mentioned “a great pilot”, Francis Campion (who is no longer with us) was also a wonderful person and an experienced parachutist. His family grieves the tragedy of this loss and misses him every day. Should Mr. Foley lose his position and his pension due to an error that cost someone else their life, it is a small price for him to pay. He should be happy that he still gets to go home to his family… something that Francis will never do again.

Please.

Do you think people around here don't know about death and friends, fathers, brothers, and sons?

Do you think people around here don't give a shit about doing whatever it takes to support grunts?

Don't even start with this bullshit. You disrespect Campion by even hinting at such a thing. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Terribly ashamed.

[Guest RAB]

Please.

Do you think people around here don't know about death and friends, fathers, brothers, and sons?

Do you think people around here don't give a shit about doing whatever it takes to support grunts?

Don't even start with this bullshit. You disrespect Campion by even hinting at such a thing. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Terribly ashamed.

Watch yourself... you are talking to someone who is actually related to Francis. There is absolutely no shame in asking that a bunch of people, who obviously don't know him, have enough RESPECT to call him by his name.

I have only asked that people be slightly more respectful, nowhere did I ever state that anyone here didn't understand what it is to lose someone. I am only reminding people that there are two sides to this story. Try a little respect yourself.

Edited December 13, 2012 by RAB

[Guest]

Watch yourself... you are talking to someone who is actually related to Francis.

No, you watch yourself.

You are doing the talking and using his memory to call attention to yourself.

You are disrespecting a warrior and all his fellow warriors by coming in here and chiding people who understand death and sacrifice. Not one single person around here has anything but respect for him.

Again, you should be ashamed of yourself for disrespecting someone you say is a loved one. His heart would break if he knew you were running around the Internet chastising his fellow warriors.

Stop disrespecting him. You are using his death to call attention to yourself. That is the worst form of disrespect i know of. You are soiling the memory of a warrior. Stop.

[Fud]

Watch yourself... you are talking to someone who is actually related to Francis...Try a little respect yourself.

If you are in fact related to the deceased soldier, I am sorry for your loss and for his family. I have read and reread this thread multiple times because something is rotten with this situation. I think leadership is missing the forest for the trees, but I do not have all of the facts either.

However, I do not believe any posts have disrespected the deceased, or placed blame on him in any way. Even mentioning this as a possibility is ludicrous and shameful as mentioned above. It seems these days that there always has to be a scapegoat for something that goes wrong in the military. Some deserve the punishment they receive, but others are thrown under the bus so leadership can be seen as taking action.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Fud

[Guest RAB]

Fud- thank you for your respectful response. Unfortunately, there are others on this thread (as you see above) that are not as respectful as yourself. You are absolutely correct, nowhere on this thread or anywhere else has anyone EVER blamed Francis for this accident. However, at the beginning of the thread a few people referred to Francis as "dude" and, until I responded to this thread, no one had even mentioned his name.

No one wants anyone to suffer any further over this incident... If Foley did, in fact, do everything that he was supposed to do, then I sincerely hope that he will be found innocent. I am certain that he is also devistated that such a loss happened.

Thank you again for your respect and also for your service to this country.

[magnetfreezer]

Fud- thank you for your respectful response. Unfortunately, there are others on this thread (as you see above) that are not as respectful as yourself. You are absolutely correct, nowhere on this thread or anywhere else has anyone EVER blamed Francis for this accident. However, at the beginning of the thread a few people referred to Francis as "dude" and, until I responded to this thread, no one had even mentioned his name.

No one wants anyone to suffer any further over this incident... If Foley did, in fact, do everything that he was supposed to do, then I sincerely hope that he will be found innocent. I am certain that he is also devistated that such a loss happened.

Thank you again for your respect and also for your service to this country.

Sorry for your loss; the 2 sides to a story is why we have safety investigation boards - to find the truth and disseminate/apply the lessons learned to prevent the same thing from happening to others in the future. If the mistakes were egregious or intentional, a flight evaluation board can be convened on the aircrew involved. The court-martial system is simply not equipped (or the proper venue) to investigate a safety incident.

[AnimalMother]

RAB, as an outsider, I think you are mistakenly taking offense to the local vernacular. "Dude" is NOT a term of disrespect and, I can assure you that no one here means any disrespect to your kin, quite the opposite in fact. Go read some of the past threads involving casualties, I doubt you'll find any names in there either, maybe a callsign or two, but that's it. I'm not here to play the blame game, but I can tell you that the Air Force has an unfortunate habit of crucifying people simply due to circumstantial proximity to unfortunate incidents. We're not trying to blame people here, we're trying to support our bros here who are being thrown under the bus. No, I don't have a lot of the facts, but based on extensive experience with this shit, I can certainly tell you that there is an extremely high probability that this court martial is built on bullshit and a sense of self preservation of a lot of "leadership". Furthermore, as tough a pill as it is to swallow, you need to understand that people make mistakes, and sometimes those mistakes cost them, or someone else, their life and that's just the business we're in. And if you think Francis was the first guy to take a fall on the DZ....

So, next time you feel the urge to roll in hot on a bunch of dudes who sacrifice more on a daily basis than you probably have in your entire life, slow your roll, ease up off it, try to learn up yourself and understand who is actually on your side. Honestly dude, I am truly sorry for your loss, but understand that there are a ton of Francis' bros out there who got to go home to their kids thanks to the tireless efforts of a lot of the guys on this forum. Respect that. Big ups.

[Hacker]

RAB obviously has no idea about the sacred trust and responsibility that AF aircrew have for the ground-pounder brethren we support.

RAB also has no idea that many of us have been in plenty of life-or-death situations as aviators where our on-the-spot judgment and decisionmaking often meant the difference between living or dying, either for ourselves/our crews or for the ground forces we were supporting. RAB clearly has no understanding that when events turn out on the "death" side of the fence, how heavily that weighs upon us.

[M2]

Agreed, and I am curious as to how many Army personnel involved in this incident are facing a court martial as well...

[moosepileit]

RAB- I'm sorry for your loss. Please focus on Post #7 on page one until the facts are on record since this went to trial.

I had over 100 live personnel passes and worst injuries were broken legs from my aircraft or in my formation events. Had one from each of two passes, at night, just 9 per stick, and the user still had me finish the sortie and all the passes, orbitting and watching the ambulance drive out from the hospital to the DZ, twice. This was a workup to a combat deployment for the users.

I look back and consider myself pretty lucky. Had one fellow exit #4 and land #26 from his side- had #5 thru 25 go past him before someone hit him so hard his static line broke and he was able to deploy his reserve. That's within 1 or 2 of being a towed parachutist, that is not a good thing. Still don't know if that's what really happened, but that was the story the user told me.

Posted 19 July 2012 - 08:51 PM

USAF Pilot, on 19 July 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

It is standard procedure to KIO but sometimes its not clear that it was an off DZ drop. Even if it was that info doesn't always get communicated back to the jet prior to the next drop.

In my limited experience I've found that the Army will say or not say whatever it takes to keep the drops coming. Sadly their understanding of the risk and acceptance of the inherent danger are far greater than USAF's.

Axle is easily one of the top five most skilled and experienced Airdroppers on base. . . I throw up a little in my mouth when I think what I would have done with less experience and far less proficiency. This situation makes me question whether keeping the Airdrop Qual is worth the risk.

Edited by GearMonkey, 19 July 2012 - 08:51 PM.