C-17 Pilot Charged in Training Jump Death

[LockheedFix]

Not a hypothetical...My first A-Code was a 2-ship JA/ATT as the MC doing personnel drops at Benning. Never dropped actual personnel as a CP, and this was my third airdrop sortie ouside of Altus. Oh, and the other jet's AC was my ACAD partner. Needless to say, a lot of time planning, chair flying and talking with experienced airdroppers took place prior to the sortie.

My first time dropping HALO (without a navigator) I was actually instructing it. And as far as I know, there are no written TTPs for how to actually do a jump master directed HALO drop in the J-model. So the first time I had a jump master give me MGRS coordinates and tell me to just turn the green light there, I was calling buds back home on the way to the plane and then making stuff up as I went. I'm lucky I'm not sitting in Leavenworth.

[Learjetter]

I was there...it happened on Tuesday, and I confirmed with legal folks on Friday.

Only unprivileged info from SIB can be released to party in court action. Takes DUSD(I&E) to release privileged info. I doubt privileged info was released. Google DODI 6055.7 enclosure 5 for details on privilege...

I suspect only the UN-privileged portions were released to the court.

Lastly, if questioned by safety, ask for privilege. SE folks are being trained to NOT offer...whatever you tell them before getting an offer of confidentiality, is not privileged...including the AMC form 97.

Glad Capt Foley beat the charges...hope he is able to set the rest of his record straight and continue to serve as he chooses.

[Day Man]

Like I said...nothing privileged was used in this case. HOWEVER, there are ways privileged info can be released (I think it takes SECAF approval).

I'm just warning guys to think twice about what they once thought was carte blanche WRT spilling their guts to SE.

[disgruntledemployee]

Lastly, if questioned by safety, ask for privilege. SE folks are being trained to NOT offer...whatever you tell them before getting an offer of confidentiality, is not privileged..

I've heard the same thing. Safety will not offer privilege buffet style. You need to order it off the secret menu. If they don't offer, you don't need to say anything. They will also say that you don't need cousel, but its your ass, get it if you need it.

including the AMC form 97.

Which is why I've seen some entertaining ones. Not a full-blown real example, but here is the jist: Standard form 97 header (or whatever fighter dudes call it) info like the day and tail number, and a synopsis something like, "smoke filled the cockpit so we landed." Factual, to the point.

Lastly, something I've seen over the last few years is CCs/DOs/Supervisors asking their peeps to make written statements after a situation. Sometimes its a manner to get the facts and fix things (the good boss that has your back) but often that shit is held against peeps (the boss in CYA mode and protecting his career). Watch out!

The Herk world is the same WRT personnel training. Pilots and Navs qualified out of the schoolhouse/AC certification and LMs restricted until they complete an actual personnel training folder. However, since we are all airdrop qualified and I think we drop sufficient personnel, by the time a CP is an AC, they have dropped enough to learn the emphasis areas like the JM brief, DZ survey, chute types/restrictions, DZ coord, comms, formation considerations, wind analysis, and in this case off-DZ/AD malfunction protocols.

A big point here is that we should also make sure ACs know that they should not be talked into putting their plane/crew into bad situations by people/entities like TACC/AMD/ATOC/APS/ARMY/USER/MX/crew chief/ATC/CP.

Out

[M2]

FYI - you can request copies of "The Military Commander and the Law" from the JAG folks at Maxwell, we ordered about 20 copies a few years back and they sent them for free. You can also download it PDF off the portal. Good book to be familiar with, or have handy just in case.

I posted the link back in post #126.

[C17Driver]

Any word on whether or not they are going to continue with the CM of the other Pilot?

[M2]

Any word on whether or not they are going to continue with the CM of the other Pilot?

Previously posted...

Is there any wonder considering he still ripped wings from people despite the recommendations of SIBs/AIBs? A guy in my office is friends with Jared and said the other pilot decided on separation in lieu of Court Martial. Anyone have any detail on that?

I've heard the same from a reliable source, the other pilot is separating rather than put up with this BS.

[C17Driver]

Previously posted...

Go to Air Force Docket (online list of all CM in AF) and it is still listed as going to trial...hence my question.

[matmacwc]

He's F'd. I'm sure he has a Q3 in his record and leadership will probably not let him fly again, not guilty or not. That goes for the whole crew BTW.

[Toro]

Lastly, if questioned by safety, ask for privilege. SE folks are being trained to NOT offer...whatever you tell them before getting an offer of confidentiality, is not privileged...including the AMC form 97.

Not true. The AF Safety Center trains safety personnel and they most certainly do train folks to offer privilege for personnel directly involved with the mishap. Whether your MAJCOM practices this is another thing.

Like I said...nothing privileged was used in this case. HOWEVER, there are ways privileged info can be released (I think it takes SECAF approval).

Privileged statements lose their promise of confidentiality if the the witness lied, or if criminal acts were carried out. Other than that, no.

AFI 91-204

3.3.2. The Air Force does not use privileged safety information as evidence for punitive, disciplinary, or adverse administrative actions, for determining the misconduct or line-of duty status of any person, in flying evaluation board hearings or reviews, to determine liability or liability in claims for or against the United States, or in any other manner in any action by or against the United States.

I've heard the same thing. Safety will not offer privilege buffet style. You need to order it off the secret menu. If they don't offer, you don't need to say anything. They will also say that you don't need cousel, but its your ass, get it if you need it.

You're mixing apples and oranges here. Safety isn't going to say a thing about council because they don't have anything to do with legal proceedings. And as to the secret menu, that's BS as well - not what's taught to safety folks, but - again - it may be a MAJCOM specific thing.

[Fuzz]

He's F'd. I'm sure he has a Q3 in his record and leadership will probably not let him fly again, not guilty or not. That goes for the whole crew BTW.

Does being exonerated by the court-martial clear is Q3 or are they separate? Can he appeal it or get it reversed?

[Hacker]

The crime-and-punishment actions are completely separate from anything flying related, including Q-3s and FEBs. While information from UCMJ or NJP actions can be used to influence decisions made about a pilot continuing to fly (like an FEB), it most certainly is not an automatic process (at least so far as acquittal goes).

In other words, acquittal at the Court Martial means zero in terms of going back and overturning a Q-3 or stopping an FEB.

[Butters]

Does being exonerated by the court-martial clear is Q3 or are they separate? Can he appeal it or get it reversed?

Nope Q-3 and referral OPR stay. Q-3 does no damage to your career, I know plenty of flyers that have them The referral OPR is your Rater's assessment (opinion). So, it stays. All you can do with Q-3s and Referral OPRs is refuse to sign and write a letter stating why you think it is BS. He will pin on Maj now, but enough damage has been done to make Lt Col harder to achieve.

Co-Pilot’s CM is still on the books because the paper work has not caught up yet. She will be separating soon.

[M2]

Go to Air Force Docket (online list of all CM in AF) and it is still listed as going to trial...hence my question.

Wow, I've never seen that link before, it's pretty interesting. I'm surprised at the number of Lt Cols that are listed and the charges, or how many CMs are going on here at good ol' Lackland!

Cheers! M2

[matmacwc]

Nope Q-3 and referral OPR stay. Q-3 does no damage to your career, I know plenty of flyers that have them The referral OPR is your Rater's assessment (opinion). So, it stays. All you can do with Q-3s and Referral OPRs is refuse to sign and write a letter stating why you think it is BS. He will pin on Maj now, but enough damage has been done to make Lt Col harder to achieve.

Co-Pilot’s CM is still on the books because the paper work has not caught up yet. She will be separating soon.

Q3s hurt......but is the Co hot?

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

Not true. The AF Safety Center trains safety personnel and they most certainly do train folks to offer privilege for personnel directly involved with the mishap. Whether your MAJCOM practices this is another thing.

Privileged statements lose their promise of confidentiality if the the witness lied, or if criminal acts were carried out. Other than that, no.

AFI 91-204

3.3.2. The Air Force does not use privileged safety information as evidence for punitive, disciplinary, or adverse administrative actions, for determining the misconduct or line-of duty status of any person, in flying evaluation board hearings or reviews, to determine liability or liability in claims for or against the United States, or in any other manner in any action by or against the United States.

You're mixing apples and oranges here. Safety isn't going to say a thing about council because they don't have anything to do with legal proceedings. And as to the secret menu, that's BS as well - not what's taught to safety folks, but - again - it may be a MAJCOM specific thing.

The SIB almost always occurs before the AIB. With this in mind, most guys are willing to disclose as much as necessary to the SIB in the interest of mishap prevention (I.E. the entire point of the SIB). How does this impact future SIBs if there is still any bit of doubt that what is said to an SIB in privileged will be disclosed to an AIB (or subsequent trial) if it is later determined that a crime has taken place? I've been fortunate to not have had to provide information to an SIB; however, I will certainly think twice if I think the information I provide in the name of mishap prevention is suddenly turned around to bury a bro whose luck didn't work out for him. I see no winners in this equation.

Then again, when hasn't the Air Force NOT been engaged in (at best) a zero sum game?

[disgruntledemployee]

You're mixing apples and oranges here. Safety isn't going to say a thing about council because they don't have anything to do with legal proceedings. And as to the secret menu, that's BS as well - not what's taught to safety folks, but - again - it may be a MAJCOM specific thing.

No I'm not. I sat there and heard it first hand from Safety Center reps. They teach that SIBs should not offer privilege to everyone (makes sense as not everyone needs it) and second that SIBs should try to conduct interviews without offering privilege at first. However, each SIB is different. So, if any of you get involved in a SIB sitting at the unfriendly side of the table, think about whether you need privilege. And if you think you want to talk to counsel before hand, tell them. True, SIBs don't care about counsel so don't be surprised if you ask for it first and they say its not necessary. There, fruit salad.

Out

[Karl Hungus]

Co-Pilot’s CM is still on the books because the paper work has not caught up yet. She will be separating soon.

Is she at the end of her 10 year UPT ADSC? If not, how can she just separate? Does a CM erase an ADSC? Did she palace chase?

No I'm not. I sat there and heard it first hand from Safety Center reps. They teach that SIBs should not offer privilege to everyone (makes sense as not everyone needs it) and second that SIBs should try to conduct interviews without offering privilege at first. However, each SIB is different. So, if any of you get involved in a SIB sitting at the unfriendly side of the table, think about whether you need privilege. And if you think you want to talk to counsel before hand, tell them. True, SIBs don't care about counsel so don't be surprised if you ask for it first and they say its not necessary. There, fruit salad.

Out

Yep. Always get a lawyer, and a civilian one at that.

[ram02]

Is she at the end of her 10 year UPT ADSC? If not, how can she just separate? Does a CM erase an ADSC? Did she palace chase?

I thought I read somewhere about an officer being allowed to resign for the good of the service if they have a court martial pending.

[Fud]

Does being exonerated by the court-martial clear is Q3 or are they separate? Can he appeal it or get it reversed?

No, the "not guilty" verdict clears him of the worst of the actions his command has taken against him. He can still be given a referral OPR. There is some verbiage in the MC&L that states you can still mention the events/actions that the command deems inappropriate or wrong.

Nope Q-3 and referral OPR stay. Q-3 does no damage to your career, I know plenty of flyers that have them The referral OPR is your Rater's assessment (opinion). So, it stays. All you can do with Q-3s and Referral OPRs is refuse to sign and write a letter stating why you think it is BS. He will pin on Maj now, but enough damage has been done to make Lt Col harder to achieve.

Co-Pilot’s CM is still on the books because the paper work has not caught up yet. She will be separating soon.

This is the way the command can still end your career. I'm not sure why the co-pilot took separation in lieu of court martial, as it is typically deemed a dismissal from the service. If she never plans on working again, that might have been her best option.

Is she at the end of her 10 year UPT ADSC? If not, how can she just separate? Does a CM erase an ADSC? Did she palace chase?

Yep. Always get a lawyer, and a civilian one at that.

The 10 year ADSC is a one way deal with the AF and they can get rid of you for multiple reasons. My guess is that the USAF can also try and make you pay back your UPT costs.

2 on hiring the civilian attorney. This is an expensive route to go, but they are not attached to your command, and they will fight tooth and nail for you. There are also multiple avenues of redress you can take as well.

[Toro]

I sat there and heard it first hand from Safety Center reps. They teach that SIBs should not offer privilege to everyone (makes sense as not everyone needs it) and second that SIBs should try to conduct interviews without offering privilege at first. However, each SIB is different. So, if any of you get involved in a SIB sitting at the unfriendly side of the table, think about whether you need privilege. And if you think you want to talk to counsel before hand, tell them. True, SIBs don't care about counsel so don't be surprised if you ask for it first and they say its not necessary. There, fruit salad.

Apparently we went to different courses.

Just so it's not lost - always ask for privilege, and lawyer up when in doubt.

[Hacker]

2 on hiring the civilian attorney. This is an expensive route to go, but they are not attached to your command, and they will fight tooth and nail for you.

ADCs aren't attached to your command, either -- and that is intentional.

It isn't the fear of Command influence that should motivate someone to hire a civilian attorney; it is for their wider range and depth of experience than the SJA prosecutors they will be up against. In my narrow experience in this area, the correct civilian attorney (especially those who are former SJAs) can run circles around most ADCs and SJAs.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Hacker

[Fud]

ADCs aren't attached to your command, either -- and that is intentional.

It isn't the fear of Command influence that should motivate someone to hire a civilian attorney; it is for their wider range and depth of experience than the SJA prosecutors they will be up against. In my narrow experience in this area, the correct civilian attorney (especially those who are former SJAs) can run circles around most ADCs and SJAs.

Agreed 100%. I would only hire someone who was a former ADC or SJA. The ADCs are also very good attorneys for the most part, but do not have as much experience.

[Butters]

Is she at the end of her 10 year UPT ADSC? If not, how can she just separate? Does a CM erase an ADSC? Did she palace chase?

No, took a deal, the deal did, no.

She had just gotten married before this happened and was going to JBMDL. After this happened they took her assignment away pending the CM. CM took forever. So, she was offered a deal. Testify for the prosecution (they could not find a pilot anywhere to testify for them) and we will let you resign you commission and we will not CM you. Sounds bad, but what she said in her testimony was the truth, and she would have said that anyway. She just wanted to eventually move to where her husband lived and separating was the best way to do that. Her CM was still on the books just in case she reneged on the deal. Unfortunately, more damage was done to her carrer as a Capt, than Jared as a Maj.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Butters

[Beaver]

No, took a deal, the deal did, no.

She had just gotten married before this happened and was going to JBMDL. After this happened they took her assignment away pending the CM. CM took forever. So, she was offered a deal. Testify for the prosecution (they could not find a pilot anywhere to testify for them) and we will let you resign you commission and we will not CM you. Sounds bad, but what she said in her testimony was the truth, and she would have said that anyway. She just wanted to eventually move to where her husband lived and separating was the best way to do that. Her CM was still on the books just in case she reneged on the deal. Unfortunately, more damage was done to her carrer as a Capt, than Jared as a Maj.

So she's a rat. Too bad about her career.