Mass Shooting in Aurora Colorado

[pintail21]

So let's get this straight. A fellow pilot augers one in and there's nothing but "Don't speculate, you weren't there, you can't say how you'd react." But go to a movie theater and have an armed, armored, prepared lunatic packing heat with 100 round mags throwing flash bangs/smoke grenades/tear gas open up on everyone and there's nothing but saying "those people are pussies, I totally would have tackled the guy".

If you think that in this situation that a CCW would have done anything you are completely wrong. The Hollywood shootout had the above scenario with the dozens of trained police officers having time to prepare for it while responding, open firing lanes, broad daylight, no gas or civilians running around blocking your shot and what effect did those small caliber handgun bullets do to the a-holes wearing body armor? Absolutely nothing. The dude had kevlar, a helmet, the element of surprise and a great vantage point. Maybe you'd be the hero and put a round in his face to save the day, but odds are you'd panic, take a poor shot, put more rounds in the air possibly hitting people who might have escaped unharmed, the dude would have killed you, maybe saving 1 or 2 people (but then again maybe the crossfire results in an equal number of casualties), then resumed the slaughter.

Edited July 21, 2012 by pintail21

[ForgotPassword]

Hollywood shooters were also prepared to die. This guy gave up.

[Fuzz]

The other thing I don't get is the guy was walking up and down the isles shooting people, he had his back to someone at some point. It would be different if he stood at the front and just shot into the audience. The no-guns disarms me of my firearm but I always carry my gerber tactical pocket knife for the same reason as I carry a concealed firearm. Again, I can't say if I could have or would have done anything but not once person of the 100 or so in there did anything.

Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, ect.

Maybe martians might have abducted him too, the fact of the matter is no one did anything to stop this guy, and law abiding citizens were deprived of their ability to have the means to defend themselves by the theater's policy. Do we know for a fact that if someone had shot back it would have saved some more lives? No, but we do know that people died and this guy went unopposed during this massacre, all most of the people on here are saying is there might have been a different outcome if people had been allowed to have their weapons.

[HuggyU2]

The guy had on Kevlar and had an AR-15. I realize Kevlar doesn't make you invincible but I'm not sure how much someone CC a 9 mil could have actually helped

Disagree.

This guy did not have a death wish on himself, and was unwilling to go up against armed opponents. Once he met armed resistance, he gave up.

Had just one of those folks in the theater had a weapon to defend themselves, and had the shooter realized it, I have no doubt he would have turned tail and retreated.

Too bad the scenario didn't play out like this event a week ago:

https://www.allameric...-ocala-florida/

Watching those 2 pussies run each other over trying to get out of the door is priceless.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Huggyu2

[Fuzz]

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/aurora-victim-matt-mcquinn-shields-girlfriend-samantha-yowler-heroic-act-article-1.1119157

Jon Blunk was a victim in the Aurora shootings. His girlfriend Jansen Young was saved when Blunk threw himself on top of her in the hail of gunfire. Blunk had previously been in the military and was planning to enlist again.

[ForgotPassword]

Wonder how many "no" answers, if any, the survivors would have given when asked if they wish there had been a CCWer or two in there.

[HU&W]

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2012/07/air-force-navy-buckley-batman-attack-sailor-killed-072112w/

USAF SSgt and Navy Sailor among those killed.

[sweet I'm SOF]

There is a degree of irony here. Everyone who is proclaiming that they would have saved the day with a CCP...what's to stop you from being the shooter in the theater? Not advocating gun control, but that is a difficult question to answer. This is an academic argument, if you come at me with you would never do such a thing, I'll skim past that. Focus on the logic of tolerating a CCP policy vice gun control. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts. If a citizen legally purchased arms, and discharged them in a public forum...and you take that person down, with legally purchased arms...are we not on a merry go round?

[pintail21]

Disagree.

This guy did not have a death wish on himself, and was unwilling to go up against armed opponents. Once he met armed resistance, he gave up.

Had just one of those folks in the theater had a weapon to defend themselves, and had the shooter realized it, I have no doubt he would have turned tail and retreated.

Too bad the scenario didn't play out like this event a week ago:

https://www.allameric...-ocala-florida/

Watching those 2 pussies run each other over trying to get out of the door is priceless.

That's an excellent video, but you have a well lit area, nobody was running around because the bad guys obviously weren't planning on killing everyone in sight, and an open room. If those robbers came in shooting and everybody was running around it wouldn't have been that easy. Either way, props to the old dude for stepping up. Compare that to a movie theater. You have a foot of room between the seats, it's dark, you're sitting in the middle of the theater, there's smoke, and seats left down, a bunch of people's shit on the floor, probably bodies in the aisle, I don't care if you're ######ing Usain Bolt, you aren't going to get a good run at the guy unless you're lucky enough to be sitting in an aisle seat and no one is in your way, you're not blinded, you think on your feet fast enough and you haven't been shot already.

In this case the video shows the guy firing 6 times at 2 targets. For the first 2 shots he sneaks to within a couple of feet of the only one with a gun and then fires a few more close range shots at them running away. The result? 3 Superficial wounds in the hip, arm and buttock. Again, well lit area, no one in the way, open shooting lanes and area to maneuver, no body armor and most importantly no one is trying to kill him and everyone in there, and the suspects are still able to sprint away. If they were more bent on death and destruction like this ass clown that probably means the bad guys could keep on shooting and killing. I wish there were some brave dudes packing heat who could have popped this guy the second he started throwing shit, but this isn't an crappy action movie where the good guys always win and the bad guys can't shoot straight, it's real life.

Don't think that because he surrendered that he was a coward who wouldn't fight back. A lot of assassins and deranged shooters want immortality through infamy, but are willing to die or fight back in the process because they know if the stop the second someone resists they won't get that infamy from wounding 1 or 2 people. In this case he probably figured he'd met his quota and would just bask in the media attention in jail. Either way put him on trail, play a recording of his confession, drag him out back and put a bullet in his head and move on. Why can't these pieces of shit just save everyone the effort and put a bullet in their head before they plan something like this?

[HuggyU2]

Don't think that because he surrendered that he was a coward who wouldn't fight back.

That is exactlywhat I think.

And, yes, it was a dark theater, etc...

But had a CCW carrying person changed the end result to 11 dead or less, it would have been well worth it.

[HeloDude]

If a citizen legally purchased arms, and discharged them in a public forum...and you take that person down, with legally purchased arms...are we not on a merry go round?

I'll take the bait--what you said is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard/read. You are trying to compare deadly assault with self defense? I truly hope you're not 'SOF'.

[Buddy Spike]

That is exactlywhat I think.

And, yes, it was a dark theater, etc...

But had a CCW carrying person changed the end result to 11 dead or less, it would have been well worth it.

And if a CCW carrying person had missed and hit one of the people fleeing, changing the result to 13? What then?

[SocialD]

And if a CCW carrying person had missed and hit one of the people fleeing, changing the result to 13? What then?

I'll bite and play devils advocate.

What if the CCW got shots off earlier, and the death toll was only 3? So is it better that he may have hit one person, but got the coward to give up earlier...thus only have a death toll of 3 and a few wounded rather than 12 dead and 50 wounded? What then?

Edited July 22, 2012 by SocialD

[ForgotPassword]

And if a CCW carrying person had missed and hit one of the people fleeing, changing the result to 13? What then?

I think everyone in that theater would have taken the chance.

[HeloDude]

And if a CCW carrying person had missed and hit one of the people fleeing, changing the result to 13? What then?

Dude, I know you're just trying to discuss the non 'hero'/another realistic side of the argument, but if everyone thinks and acted the way you have described (not taking a shot if you are carrying because of situation, not charging the shooter, etc) then this douchebag has just given a sound tactical plan to any other psycho who desires pulling off the same assault. Fortunately, I don't believe this--people need to charge even when they're not prepared/equipped to do so. I'm mixing apples and oranges here--but a bunch of good dudes stormed the beaches of Normandy even though the beaches probably didn't look very appealing to the guys on the first wave.

[HuggyU2]

And if a CCW carrying person had missed and hit one of the people fleeing, changing the result to 13? What then?

Yeah, "what if" the scenario were different and a CCW carrier had seen him trying to enter the theater with a weapon and body armor. What then?

Or "what if" his weapon had jammed while he was 10' away from someone with a CCW?

Or "what if" a police officer had been on duty in the theater and engaged the shooter, and managed to kill 1+ bystanders? Most police I've met at the range don't shoot that well.

Or what if it was in broad daylight, in a restaurant, with a CCW carrier who was an excellent shooter?

I guess we will never know. But the world's a dangerous place.

"Be prepared", Boy Scout.

Side note: are you the guy that developed the "Active Shooter" CBT for the AF? You know... the one that has military folks hiding under their desks in fear, while the shooter goes room-to-room killing people?

[Fuzz]

If a citizen legally purchased arms, and discharged them in a public forum...and you take that person down, with legally purchased arms...are we not on a merry go round?

[Masshole]

There is a degree of irony here. Everyone who is proclaiming that they would have saved the day with a CCP...what's to stop you from being the shooter in the theater? Not advocating gun control, but that is a difficult question to answer. This is an academic argument, if you come at me with you would never do such a thing, I'll skim past that. Focus on the logic of tolerating a CCP policy vice gun control. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts. If a citizen legally purchased arms, and discharged them in a public forum...and you take that person down, with legally purchased arms...are we not on a merry go round?

I would assume sanity stops me from being the shooter in the theater. What kind of question is that? And to follow it up with disregarding anyone who says they would not do it is ridiculous as well. Am I misunderstanding something? In regards to the last question, no it is not a merry-go-round. If you take a shot to kill the shooter, you are acting in self-defense and not cold-blooded murder.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Masshole

[Buddy Spike]

Dude, I know you're just trying to discuss the non 'hero'/another realistic side of the argument, but if everyone thinks and acted the way you have described (not taking a shot if you are carrying because of situation, not charging the shooter, etc) then this douchebag has just given a sound tactical plan to any other psycho who desires pulling off the same assault. Fortunately, I don't believe this--people need to charge even when they're not prepared/equipped to do so. I'm mixing apples and oranges here--but a bunch of good dudes stormed the beaches of Normandy even though the beaches probably didn't look very appealing to the guys on the first wave.

The problem with the "I'd have been a hero" discussion is that it doesn't take into account the making the situation worse aspect. It's one thing to shoot armed assailants in an empty cafe, but it's an entirely different scenario to draw and shoot in a crowded movie theater. And I'm not talking about self preservation here, I'm talking about not making it worse.

- The movie theater was completely packed, which means people were either running or dropping to the ground. It was dark and there was tear gas. Do you think that gives you a good shot? I don't know about you, but I've always been taught to know what I'm shooting and what's behind it. Could you live with killing an innocent bystander in the crossfire? And in this litigious society, could you afford it?

- In the fog of war, do you think people will recognize you for the good guy, or just another assailant shooting up the place? What if there's another CCW holder that thinks you're part of the problem?

- What about police? Say they had arrived earlier (or been on scene as it happened), how do you identify yourself as a good guy when there's just been a mass shooting and you're holding a weapon?

This is NOT a black and white scenario for any CCW holder. You cannot simply say "well I would have shot him and saved lives." It's not that easy, just like before 9/11, people wouldn't have tried to subdue terrorists hi-jacking a flight.

Yeah, "what if" the scenario were different and a CCW carrier had seen him trying to enter the theater with a weapon and body armor. What then?

Ok, when do you shoot? This was a movie premiere. How would you know it's a shooter and not some theatrics from the movie?

Or "what if" his weapon had jammed while he was 10' away from someone with a CCW?

Is there a clear shot?

Or "what if" a police officer had been on duty in the theater and engaged the shooter, and managed to kill 1+ bystanders? Most police I've met at the range don't shoot that well.

He would have been roasted for doing so.

Or what if it was in broad daylight, in a restaurant, with a CCW carrier who was an excellent shooter?

Completely different scenario.

I guess we will never know. But the world's a dangerous place.

"Be prepared", Boy Scout.

100% agree.

Side note: are you the guy that developed the "Active Shooter" CBT for the AF? You know... the one that has military folks hiding under their desks in fear, while the shooter goes room-to-room killing people?

Side note: GFY.

[Fuzz]

[Masshole]

- In the fog of war, do you think people will recognize you for the good guy, or just another assailant shooting up the place? What if there's another CCW holder that thinks you're part of the problem?

Good point, and that was actually a case in the Tuscon shooting: https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41018893/ns/slate_com/t/armed-giffords-hero-nearly-shot-wrong-man/#.UAtVnvX-1EM

[Fuzz]

"- In the fog of war, do you think people will recognize you for the good guy, or just another assailant shooting up the place? What if there's another CCW holder that thinks you're part of the problem?"

So lets just take everyone guns away! That'll fix the problem

If I get shot by another CCW holder, 1) I would be pissed that I got shot 2) I would be even more pissed if he didn't get the shooter

[Buddy Spike]

So lets just take everyone guns away! That'll fix the problem

Nice straw man argument.

[Beaver]

No, I'm not saying that at all. In fact, I am a CCW holder and I carry a Glock 36 everywhere I go.

The problem is that it's not about courage, it's about being realistic. It cracks me up when the bravado ramps up and everyone starts the chest thumping that they would have single handedly saved the day, or "put a gun to the side of his head."

As I mentioned, a crowded, dark theater with people panicking and stampeding is a clear avenue of fire nightmare. You're very likely to not have a shot at all, and if you do, you may just be creating a crossfire.

I am not advocating a course of action that involves running away or hiding, but the monday morning quarterbacking is bullshit. Even with a weapon, this situation would be very tough to prevail. He has body armor - you don't. Headshots are pretty unrealistic in a tear gas/dark environment with people running in front of you.

So you wouldn't attack him if you were unarmed, you wouldn't shoot him if you were armed, you wouldn't run away but you would roll up either? What course of action does that leave? Doing nothing. Which is exactly what happened in Colorado (and Virginia Tech). We don't have to wargame that COA to see how it turns out - it ends with at least 12 people dead and 50 wounded and the shooter having a smoke in the parking lot until the cops show up. Holmes didn't stop killing people until he decided to stop - the death toll could have been much higher. And you're main concern is not making it worse?

I'm not advocating a lone hero going mano a mano with the shooter. My problem is with the passive victim mentality that has pervaded our culture. I mean, here we've got a FIGHTER pilot who says he wouldn't do anything to stop the shooter even if you had a gun! The lone gunman mass murder scenario will cease to be a viable tactic once enough people realize that the only way to counter the threat is with a group attack. The people on Flight 93 figured it out instantly and changed everything we think about airline hijacking scenarios. The same thing needs to happen with the active shooter tactic.

[The Kayla]

To lighten the mood some.. I saw this, and thought it was fitting.

On a different note, I have some non-snarky questions to ask:

*Do you think the theater should change it's policy about guns not being allowed?

*Do you think that the theater is partly at fault? For not having LEOs around? For not allowing CCWs?

(I should add: I've been to about 10 midnight releases, and there have always been cops in the theater, so the fact that there weren't, is odd to me.)