Techsan Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 Being old school, I have to ask, wouldn't they have entered the coordinates for MacDill in the system - GPS has been very accurate for me. A crosscheck would have told them that MacDill was miles ahead. I'm sure it was, but when the range on your MFD is set to 100NM everything looks close.
Apollo Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 Being old school, I have to ask, wouldn't they have entered the coordinates for MacDill in the system - GPS has been very accurate for me. A crosscheck would have told them that MacDill was miles ahead. Thus the discussion of using backup instrument approaches. With that said, the four mile difference isn't much time for a large plane to cover. Minute and a half or so. 1
HercDude Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 Wonder if these guys had finished SOS in correspondence & their Master's in Religious Studies yet? 6
Jaded Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 Wonder if these guys had finished SOS in correspondence & their Master's in Religious Studies yet? I would like to see a study done showing the AAD and PME completion rates for the individuals deemed causal for class A mishaps in the last couple of years. 6
Orbit Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 This would be the Navy's equivalent of a skipper running his ship aground. A sure career-killer. I am, however, impressed at how they got it stopped once they realized the runway was running out too soon. My hat's off to them, it looked like real skill to me. Too bad the military doesn't forgive or forget. As Popeye would say, "How embarriskin'". I think its a bit more like landing on the wrong carrier like this, https://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?157850-US-Navy-quot-wrong-carrier-quot-graffitti
Bobby Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 Wonder if these guys had finished SOS in correspondence & their Master's in Religious Studies yet? I was thinking the exact same thing when I first heard about this.
guineapigfury Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 Wonder if these guys had finished SOS in correspondence & their Master's in Religious Studies yet? That one might be valid, because the crew in question could probably benefit from some divine intervention when the FEB convenes.
VCQ09 Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 Exactly. I wonder if KMCF tower (or any tower) cleared them to land. Edit: Because they should have expected a clearance to land at a controlled airport, an AFB no less. I also wondered about that...
JeepGuyC17 Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 (edited) I also wondered about that... Wouldn't be surprised if they reported (what they thought) was the field in sight to approach, got handed off to MacDill tower and got cleared to land (at MacDill). Biggest question in my mind is why, at any point prior to touchdown, neither pilot thought it was a bit odd that the primary runway at an AMC base looked a lot like an assault strip. (literally, nearly identical runway dimensions) I wonder if there were some extenuating factors (though I can't imagine what they might be) Edited July 22, 2012 by JeepGuyC17
chim richalds Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 2 things: 1- Scroll your mfd all the way in and you see you're not over the faf. 2- Air Force pilots never look at sectionals, I did all the time when i flew civilian, if you look at the Tampa area, you'd know Peter O'Knight was right there. I don't want to be the ILS all the time panzy, but maybe visuals should be put on hold if you're unfamiliar with the field.
Azimuth Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 No. Its a testament to the only luck they had that day. Okay Class A guy.
ThreeHoler Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 Ok, I agree with all that. Especially the part about the CRM game. I'm interested to hear the CVR on this one, if it's ever released. Does it even require a safety investigation? I expect it to be a Class E HAP.
matmacwc Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 It will be a CMAV or some other class E, depending on the damage on the runways due to a fatty landing on an unapproved surface. Haven't checked AFSAS yet, but it should be in there. We will all find out why this happened.
ThreeHoler Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 Okay Class A guy. Many things failed for this to happen. There is a lot of background information we don't have...
Breckey Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 Air Force pilots never look at sectionals, I did all the time when i flew civilian, if you look at the Tampa area, you'd know Peter O'Knight was right there. I don't want to be the ILS all the time panzy, but maybe visuals should be put on hold if you're unfamiliar with the field. Hey now, that's all we use! I haven't used anything without pretty pictures on it since T-6's
stract Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 It will be a CMAV or some other class E, depending on the damage on the runways due to a fatty landing on an unapproved surface. Haven't checked AFSAS yet, but it should be in there. We will all find out why this happened. There is no prelim msg requirement for a Class E, only a 30-day final msg or status msg update, so you'd have to search AFSAS for the mishap date to see if anything is in there (and all you'd get to see would be the one-liner) before the 30 day mark.
LockheedFix Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 Not to say it's their job or anything, but a nice "Reach 6969, you appear to be turning away from the field" would have gone a long way in his incident. The Marine tower controllers at Camp Dwyer saved my ass one night as I shot an approach on NVGs in a dust storm by telling me it appeared I was lining up on the helicopter LZ. Granted, it was their bad for not turning on the lights for runway, but still, a crew save's a good save, even if it's from ATC.
lj35driver Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 Ok, I agree with all that. Especially the part about the CRM game. I'm interested to hear the CVR on this one, if it's ever released. Does it even require a safety investigation? That's something that will never happen. The CVR from the 4-engine flameout in 2010 would've been very educational. Wait, there was even a video taken in the cockpit as well. Leadership decided it was something we shouldn't see even though it would've been a great CRM tool.
HoHum Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 And I bet your eng couldn't buy a beer that night could he? Dude...I wish - we were either either min-turning or on Bravo for a week. Eventually we got 'er done. Break break For everybody talking about landing clearances and tower not intervening: It was probably just like it happened to me. I caught the false glideslope, declared visual, started the descent, switched to tower and got cleared to land because I was on a 6-9 mile ILS final. From tower's vantage - it would be impossible to notice anything was wrong, except for an early descent, as Knight is precisely under the ILS. I imagine some guys get tacti-cool and start an early descent just to check out the bay. 1
Clayton Bigsby Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 It's the towers' job to ensure you're on approach and set up to land on the correct runway (let alone correct airport), as well as double-check that the gear is down, etc...at least that's the standard I was trained to. Where I'm at we have several satellite airports and there can be lots of confusion for the unfamiliar or tired. There is actually specific phraseology for controllers for this issue, for when somebody isn't appearing on final where they're supposed to be or where you should be able to see them...and that's supposed to be the wake-up for the flight crew. But it only works if you're looking for them. I would think the McDill tower is in as much trouble as this crew is. I guess I could go over to liveatc.net and see if there's a feed for mcdill, but I don't care enough to. If so there's probably an archive of it too. Just need to line up the z-times. So, assuming they both weren't up on the flight deck, were the loads Q-3'd too? Just wondering how AD would handle this (assuming they're an AD crew).
Whitman Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 Isn't the C-17 the only MWS in AMC that does not have an extra crewmember (ie: boom operator, FE, nav, etc) present in the cockpit for landing? Honest question, but what exactly does a load master do in the back during final approach in a C17? "2" on a crew save is a good save!
LockheedFix Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Isn't the C-17 the only MWS in AMC that does not have an extra crewmember (ie: boom operator, FE, nav, etc) present in the cockpit for landing? Honest question, but what exactly does a load master do in the back during final approach in a C17? "2" on a crew save is a good save! Depending on the situation, the C-130J does not have an extra crewmember up front. In combat or with pax on board, the LMs are in the back. If you can't find the rIght airfield with all the tools you have in the J-model, you have no business flying. Of course, just like backin up the visual with the ILS, they only work if you use them. Edited July 23, 2012 by LockheedFix 1
Guest Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 2 things: Air Force pilots never look at sectionals Not true.
bucky60k Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 Isn't the C-17 the only MWS in AMC that does not have an extra crewmember (ie: boom operator, FE, nav, etc) present in the cockpit for landing? Honest question, but what exactly does a load master do in the back during final approach in a C17? "2" on a crew save is a good save! Usually the 3rd pilot will sit in one of the jump seats if there was one (probably the case for a 1A1 such as transporting Mattis). Honestly (at least in my experience) having a load master up front wouldn't have helped. On 69% of approaches they were passed out, reading a maxim, or had such abysmally low SA On what the pilots were doing they would have no idea that they were landing at the wrong airport.
LockheedFix Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 Not true. I steal sectionals from out bases every chance I get. I've never figured out why we fly around without a visual depiction of ATC airspace. 1
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