Azimuth Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 Usually the 3rd pilot will sit in one of the jump seats if there was one (probably the case for a 1A1 such as transporting Mattis). Honestly (at least in my experience) having a load master up front wouldn't have helped. On 69% of approaches they were passed out, reading a maxim, or had such abysmally low SA On what the pilots were doing they would have no idea that they were landing at the wrong airport. The CRM training will probably start changing.
Guest Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 I steal sectionals from out bases every chance I get. I've never figured out why we fly around without a visual depiction of ATC airspace. Have your Navo order them and you won't have to steal them anymore. Every decent Navo has a well stocked locker with packs of sectionals covering the entire US.
bucky60k Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 The CRM training will probably start changing. I hope so but every time I tried to get a LM involved in the aviation aspect of the C-17 (how to read an IAP, interpret a PFD, etc) they literally did not care. If they want to start making changes they need to get the loads more involved at Altus or up the education requirements (along the lines of ENGs or FCCs) to enhance CRM in that community.
C17Driver Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 I hope so but every time I tried to get a LM involved in the aviation aspect of the C-17 (how to read an IAP, interpret a PFD, etc) they literally did not care. If they want to start making changes they need to get the loads more involved at Altus or up the education requirements (along the lines of ENGs or FCCs) to enhance CRM in that community. That's unfortunate. Most of the LMs I've flown with we're more than happy to assist when given a little instruction. Our squadron provided training to help with confirmations checks (configurations and airport environment... Especially when on NVGs). We also trained them to do chart reading during low level flying.
Champ Kind Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 It's the towers' job to ensure you're on approach and set up to land on the correct runway (let alone correct airport), as well as double-check that the gear is down, etc... Pretty sure all of the above tasks are ultimately the PIC's job.
itsokimapilot Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 We also trained them to do chart reading during low level flying. Really? Wow, I'm a prior load and would never expect them to do that. That would be equal to a load expecting a pilot to properly calculate restraint criteria or doing a load shift formula. Thanks for the help, but I'll take it from here...
moosepileit Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) LM is welcome, often not available, and should not be needed. With the equipment available and basic adherence to the tasks, not needed. Fatigue, either pilot, co or both, should be the threat. Sharp crew can handle plenty of curves, using all the crm won't pull your tush back from a collective loss of S/A. I worry about CFIT, didn't think biting off on the wrong airpark on the visual would make the news. MPD didnt help the current generation. I fear folks are not staying far enough ahead of the jet. Is this the Monday morning lesson? Again, they are welcome, but a band-aid on a bleed-out if needed. I too brief them into the leg's threats and chart reading lessons at least give some shared skin in the game. Edited July 23, 2012 by moosepileit
GearMonkey Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 That's something that will never happen. The CVR from the 4-engine flameout in 2010 would've been very educational. Wait, there was even a video taken in the cockpit as well. Leadership decided it was something we shouldn't see even though it would've been a great CRM tool. The CVR was released and has been part of multiple C-17 CRM refresher and quarterly safety meetings. The recordings were chopped up for the briefing to match up with multiple slides which has its merits but I think a start to finish play of the tape would be even more eye opening. I think the elapsed time would add a whole new perspective to this incident. I'm not sure what the deal is with the video. I heard the KTCM Reservists got to see it but none of the Active Duty briefings include any of it. Privacy issues maybe? Regardless, one big lesson I learned is never to let Combat Camera film me at work!
Danger41 Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 Did a little search and here is the airnav link to Peter O Knight airport. https://www.airnav.com/airport/KTPF Look at the airfield, then move down to 7 o'clock and see that the runway is aligned exactly on the same heading at Macdill. Also, here is the ILS to 22 at Macdill. Notice the note in the upper left of the planform view. https://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1207/00418IL22.PDF No dog in this fight, just thought I'd share the info with the bros.
Breckey Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 Have your Navo order them and you won't have to steal them anymore. Every decent Navo has a well stocked locker with packs of sectionals covering the entire US. I found that a some of the Base Ops facilities are starting to not carry sectionals. They said that with the push to EFB's, they're not going to be carrying them. I wasn't able to find a sectional I forgot on a x/c at three different military bases.
Clayton Bigsby Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 I hope so but every time I tried to get a LM involved in the aviation aspect of the C-17 (how to read an IAP, interpret a PFD, etc) they literally did not care. If they want to start making changes they need to get the loads more involved at Altus or up the education requirements (along the lines of ENGs or FCCs) to enhance CRM in that community. It doesn't help that there are some cultural issues here...a load who is perceived to spend too much time kissing ass upstairs is derisively called a 'cockpit loadmaster', and previous avenues for education like time in the sim were cut down - ISI training was done once a year in the sim and used to have quite a bit of extra space built in, until someone at the training contractor decided those 4 hours should be spent entirely on ISI troubleshooting procedures and those alone. To apply external (or APU) power to the jet. That said, there was some CRM training on what to look for should the LM be in the cockpit for final, but most of it consisted of look to see the gear handle down and 5 green lights for the wheels, and see if the flaps are extended. That's about it. The primary LM station is downstairs in the C-17, and the LM is required to be in that seat for takeoff and landing (to monitor pax and/or cargo). If there are extra loads, they can be upstairs if the ACM seats haven't been given away to high ranking officials, hot chicks, etc, but there isn't a requirement either way. Pretty sure all of the above tasks are ultimately the PIC's job. They are, but if a plane landed gear-up while I was on position I would be held somewhat responsible as well. I've had gear and wrong-airport saves, but a lot of it is from working GA and the standard stuff that goes with that territory.
stract Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 well until all airframes have EFBs, BOPS should not be able to decide on their own to not continue ordering sectionals, etc. That's a huge foul. 1
bowe96 Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 Pretty sure all of the above tasks are ultimately the PIC's job. This. If you can't determine if you are landing on the correct airfield, why were you given the A code? All mitigating factors aside this is pretty basic. I've had some pretty epic helmet fires, but put the gear down and land on the correct piece of asphalt I still managed to pull off without much angst.
uhhello Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 Okay Class A guy. Ha! Real cute but not seeing the correlation other than being lucky goes a long way sometimes.
ThreeHoler Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 That's something that will never happen. The CVR from the 4-engine flameout in 2010 would've been very educational. Wait, there was even a video taken in the cockpit as well. Leadership decided it was something we shouldn't see even though it would've been a great CRM tool. Video like that, if it does not include analysis, is factual and can be FOIA'd.As long as it doesn't identify the crew members involved.
Hacker Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 They are, but if a plane landed gear-up while I was on position I would be held somewhat responsible as well. Including what kinds of repercussions? Is there an FEB-like process wherein you can permanently lose your rating to control aircraft as a result of that incident?
moosepileit Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Not a customer to fall short, sts, with: https://www.theatlant...s-quotes/19387/ 16 Most Hair-Raising General Mattis Quotes Max Fisher 38,272 Views Jul 9, 2010 Newly appointed chief of Central Command General James Mattis did not get where he is today by being polite and mild mannered. Mattis, who has been nicknamed "Mad Dog" and "Chaos" and was portrayed in the HBO Iraq War drama "Generation Kill," has a reputation for blunt speaking. Really blunt speaking. Here are some choice quotes collected by the defense writers who so admire him. "I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you ###### with me, I'll kill you all "When Gen. Abrial arrived to relieve me as the supreme commander, only don’t ask, don’t tell kept me from hugging and kissing him" "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." "The first time you blow someone away is not an insignificant event" "I were to sum up what I've learned in 35 years of service, it's improvise, improvise, improvise." "I don't get intelligence off a satellite. Iraqis tell me who the enemy is." "I would also add that [Al Qaeda] was dumb" "You are part of the world's most feared and trusted force. Engage your brain before you engage your weapon." "no war is over until the enemy says it's over. We may think it over, we may declare it over, but in fact, the enemy gets a vote.” "Marines don't know how to spell the word defeat" "Demonstrate to the world there is 'No Better Friend, No Worse Enemy' than a U.S. Marine. " "An untrained or uneducated Marine...deployed 2 the combat zone is a bigger threat to mission accomplishment...than the enemy' "It is mostly a matter of wills. Whose will is going to break first? Ours or the enemy's USMC COIN: "a country that armed Stalin to defeat Hitler can certainly work alongside enemies of al-Qaida to defeat al-Qaida "Be the hunter, not the hunted: Never allow your unit to be caught with its guard down." "In a country with millions of people & cars going everywhere, the enemy is going to get a car bomb out there once in a while Edited July 23, 2012 by moosepileit
Guest Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 The better question might be why has a LM "had a lot of gear and wrong airport saves". Holy shit, what is going on in that community if the LM has to save anything as basic as that? I hope you overstate...
tunes Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 The better question might be why has a LM "had a lot of gear and wrong airport saves". Holy shit, what is going on in that community if the LM has to save anything as basic as that? I hope you overstate... yeah no kidding
PirateAF Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 The better question might be why has a LM "had a lot of gear and wrong airport saves". Holy shit, what is going on in that community if the LM has to save anything as basic as that? I hope you overstate... I believe he stated it was when he was "on position" - that would imply to me he has had experience working a control tower position not as a LM.
pcola Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 We all talk about how "it's only a matter of time..." due to the excess demands placed on aircrews. Masters, xmas parties, PME, non-flying deployments, desk jobs x3, rushed upgrades, shitty scheduling and msn coord by TACC (like launching from home station out of bravo for a 24 hour day w/a 2200L alert time and an AR at the 12 hour point...) Then something like this happens, and we are all ready to crucify the guys. I myself am guilty. My first thought was "how in the hell...?" Then I stepped back, and realized that I think this was very nearly one of those "it's only a matter of time..." incidents. I'd say this should be a wake-up call. The line is stretched pretty thin, and it was lucky nobody was killed. Of course, there is a fair amount of speculation in my comments, but I just can't for the life of me see how a qualified crew could make such a mistake without a chain of extenuating circumstances resulting from the excess demands stated in my second sentence (inexperience, fatigue, barely able to maintain proficiency, stress, etc...) 1
Champ Kind Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 We all talk about how "it's only a matter of time..." due to the excess demands placed on aircrews. Masters, xmas parties, PME, non-flying deployments, desk jobs x3, rushed upgrades, shitty scheduling and msn coord by TACC (like launching from home station out of bravo for a 24 hour day w/a 2200L alert time and an AR at the 12 hour point...) Then something like this happens, and we are all ready to crucify the guys. I myself am guilty. My first thought was "how in the hell...?" Then I stepped back, and realized that I think this was very nearly one of those "it's only a matter of time..." incidents. I'd say this should be a wake-up call. The line is stretched pretty thin, and it was lucky nobody was killed. Of course, there is a fair amount of speculation in my comments, but I just can't for the life of me see how a qualified crew could make such a mistake without a chain of extenuating circumstances resulting from the excess demands stated in my second sentence (inexperience, fatigue, barely able to maintain proficiency, stress, etc...) Spot on.
Guest Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 Then something like this happens, and we are all ready to crucify the guys. I don't think anyone wants to crucify anyone. Everything worked out this time but imagine how easy it would be for this to have gone very wrong. Dead wrong. I've seen a FWIC IP land gear up XC and the SIB found workload and buffoonery to be factors. He asked for and got no quarter in the Trough. He fucked up, he knew it and he admitted it. He did not lose his wings. The BL is people make mistakes. The key is to fess up so everyone can learn from them.
Clayton Bigsby Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) The better question might be why has a LM... More than one career. Was an LM. Awhile ago. Turns out there's not a whole lot of civilian career LM opportunities... I believe he stated it was when he was "on position" - that would imply to me he has experience in a tower... Shack. Come on Rainman, you knew that. Hope everything works out as best as can be. Edited July 23, 2012 by Clayton Bigsby
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now