AFI 1-1 (AF Culture/Standards)

[FireMission]

How ######ing difficult is it to salute? Why is it a big deal for anyone, O or E?

Good question? Why do people try to hang out and avoid going outside until after retreat is sounded? Or, why do they hang out inside of the doorway waiting for the national anthem to play before going outside? Wouldn't it be more respectful to go outside, salute, then go on to your car?

[CE2FE]

Is this thread full of a bunch of ABMs who just finished SOS because that's what this thread is turning into. Tradition is in our history as far as showing respect for ranking members but true respect is earned. Those of you bragging about being able to put enlisted people in their place will never earn the respect of your people and it will show if you ever take the command route. As cheesy as this sounds learn to be the officer that people salute because they respect you instead of saluting you because you're wearing $5 worth of metal on your collar/hat. You all have the authority to give orders, but enlisted have the ability to make your job a living hell.

[pawnman]

There is one thing--and one thing only--that the 'stand at attention' line in the regs (it's the protocol reg, by the way) is good for and that is this: when someone junior bows up to you with that chickenshit "we must adhere to standards or the enemy will win" argument to point out failures in uniform wear or mustache width (which along with PT tests seem to be the only things that fall into the SNCO "standards" category these days), you can throw this "standard" back in their face because sure as shit they won't be standing at attention by default when you're talking to them because that's absurd. If "standards" are that important regardless of context that TSgt Snuffy can throw his "I am charged by the CSAF to enforce standards because I am an NCO" crap, then I sure as shit can use this as a teaching moment to point out to him that if that's the case, he should be standing at attention or the terrorists will win. It tends to put "standards" in a bit of perspective.

Sort of my point. Plus, the fact that it's in the reg provides you top cover when he goes crying to his SQ/CC boss about how a captain was mean to him in the chow hall.

[Day Man]

You all have the authority to give orders, but enlisted have the ability to make your job a living hell.

Pretty sure officers have the ability authority to return the favor ten-fold. Don't recommend press-to-test on this one...

[Danny Noonin]

Sort of my point.

No it wasn't, so you must misunderstand mine.

There are very few reasons ever to stand someone at attention. My example about standards is not one of them, it would simply allow for a discussion which is merely facilitated by the fact that such a ridiculous line exists in a reg.

If one of those reasons does actually occur and you are worried about needing "top cover" because you feel you are afraid of a little scrutiny after the fact then you are a pussy.

[B.M.]

Wow. America's Air Force inaction.

I'm sure the Israelis would do well to emulate this style of leadership/swag.

[nsplayr]

Air Force inaction.

I think you meant to have a space in there, but I think this is fitting for this thread...let the wheels continue to spin!

[B.M.]

I think you meant to have a space in there, but I think this is fitting for this thread...let the wheels continue to spin!

Nope. It was on purpose.

People needing an AFI/reg/whatever reference to call someone out for being a douchebag = Seriously misplaced priorities and/or testicles.

[Kenny Powers]

Sort of my point. Plus, the fact that it's in the reg provides you top cover when he goes crying to his SQ/CC boss about how a captain was mean to him in the chow hall.

The average enlisted dude does not think that highly of the average officer (average meaning not my OIC, not my SQ/CC, someones opionion that might matter to me), i.e. you don't hurt their feelings because there is a good chance you haven't done anything to earn their respect.

If the average officer would have put me at attention a few years ago and bitched at me about something, I would have appeased them, then walked away, my buddies and I would have talked about what a douche they were for a split second and then forgot about it. The average officer has almost no influence/bearing on an enlisted dudes life.

Maybe that was just my enlisted experience, but the only officers I really ever saw were the ones climbing into a jet I just fixed, and they had a good respect for what we were doing out there. Don't get me wrong, I know there are assclowns that acting stupid in uniform that need to be corrected but you are wrong to think that they are going to give a shit about what you said 5 seconds after.

Edited August 29, 2012 by Kenny Powers

[BQZip01]

Good question? Why do people try to hang out and avoid going outside until after retreat is sounded? Or, why do they hang out inside of the doorway waiting for the national anthem to play before going outside? Wouldn't it be more respectful to go outside, salute, then go on to your car?

I personally took it as an honor I was happy to bestow upon the colors of our nation. I never felt a single bit of regret when I pushed past the crowds waiting at the door, walked outside, put on my cover, and gladly saluted (this included winter Minot evenings where the windchill was definitely well below zero). If it's really that much of an inconvenience, I suggest the following reading to adjust your perspective (from a speech made by John McCain):

As you may know, I spent five and one half years as a prisoner of war during the Vietnam War. In the early years of our imprisonment, the NVA kept us in solitary confinement or two or three to a cell. In 1971 the NVA moved us from these conditions of isolation into large rooms with as many as 30 to 40 men to a room. This was, as you can imagine, a wonderful change and was a direct result of the efforts of millions of Americans on behalf of a few hundred POWs 10,000 miles from home.

One of the men who moved into my room was a young man named Mike Christian. Mike came from a small town near Selma, Alabama. He didn't wear a pair of shoes until he was 13 years old.

At 17, he enlisted in the US Navy. He later earned a commission by going to Officer Training School. Then he became a Naval Flight Officer and was shot down and captured in 1967.

Mike had a keen and deep appreciation of the opportunities this country, and our military, provide for people who want to work and want to succeed. As part of the change in treatment, the Vietnamese allowed some prisoners to receive packages from home. In some of these packages were handkerchiefs, scarves and other items of clothing. Mike got himself a bamboo

needle.

Over a period of a couple of months, he created an American flag and sewed it on the inside of his shirt. Every afternoon, before we had a bowl of soup, we would hang Mike's shirt on the wall of the cell and say the Pledge of Allegiance. I know the Pledge of Allegiance may not seem the most important part of our day now, but I can assure you that in that stark cell, it was indeed the most important and meaningful event.

One day the Vietnamese searched our cell, as they did periodically, and discovered Mike's shirt with the flag sewn inside, and removed it. That evening they returned, opened the door of the cell, and for the benefit of all us, beat Mike Christian severely for the next couple of hours.

Then, they opened the door of the cell and threw him in. We cleaned him up as well as we could. The cell in which we lived had a concrete slab in the middle on which we slept. Four naked light bulbs hung in each corner of the room. As I said, we tried to clean up Mike as well as we could. After the excitement died down, I looked in the corner of the room, and sitting there beneath that dim light bulb with a piece of red cloth, another shirt and his bamboo needle, was my friend, Mike Christian. He was sitting there with his eyes almost shut from the beating he had received, making another American flag.

He was not making the flag because it made Mike Christian feel better. He was making that flag because he knew how important it was to us to be able to pledge our allegiance to our flag and country.

So the next time you say the Pledge of Allegiance, you must never forget the sacrifice and courage that thousands of Americans have made to build our nation and promote freedom around the world.

You must remember our duty, our honor, and our country.

Lastly, don't say a word to the wimps inside. Let it weigh on their conscience. Lead by setting the example.

[sweet I'm SOF]

This one is pretty easy. If someone outranks you, stand up at parade rest if you are indoors. If you are outdoors, salute. There was a lot of laundry thrown on the table in the above discussions. Irrelevant. A 2 Lt out ranks a CMSgt. A Capt out ranks a 1 Lt. We need to get the easy stuff right. There is no context - if you are in a flying squadron, or an FSS - the principal is what we need to focus on. A salute isn't bigger than customs and courtesy, let's not lose focus.

[billy pilgrim]

I think someone needs to be holding the LPA's feet to the fire on this one...

[pawnman]

It occurred at the chow hall. The Maj had his sunglasses on his head, TSgt yelled at him from across the chow hall, and the Maj ignored him. The TSgt was not pleased with this and immediately went to his LtCol boss, who chased the Maj outside. So now the Maj is outside, sunglasses worn properly, hat on, the LtCol has no hat. When the LtCol tells said Maj that he can't have his sunglasses on his head inside due to 36-2903, the Maj responds that the same AFI says the LtCol should be wearing his hat outdoors. A few phone calls later, and not only was the Maj on his way home, when he got home he was removed as the chief of stan/eval.

[backseatdriver]

Sooooo....the Maj went toe to toe with a Lt Col - NOT a TSgt as previously indicated.

[pawnman]

So what you are saying is that you have no real proof? Just speculation. Kinda like I posted earlier. Perception's a bitch isn't it! You don't need top cover if you're right, in any circumstance. Don't do dumb shit and you wont have to go toe to toe with NCO's.

I outrank every NCO in the Air Force. I should NEVER have to go toe-to-toe, they should be as respectful of me as I am to any Lt Col. The idea that they are upholding standards by being rude to superior officers is ridiculous, but as long as our senior leadership backs it, there's not much the CGO corps can do if our own chain of command wants to toss us under the bus because SSgt Snuffy works directly for the OG or WG/CC.

[BitteEinBit]

Ah, the 'hurt vagina syndrome'. When you have to resort to pulling rank for something so minor...or worse, call back to someone's squadron/base to tell on them, then you have failed in leadership. I'm sure there is more to the story like the Major being disrespectful (I'm just guessing) but if the Lt Col couldn't handle the problem right there on the spot....they fail in my opinion. They only called back because their vagina was hurt and they lacked the skill to handle the problem (the Major) on the spot. I've seen it where the senior officer witnesses an infraction and doesn't even address the junior member...they make a phone call and make someone else do it later. FAIL. SMH

[Danny Noonin]

Pawn,

First of all, do you even know what "top cover" means? Regs can't give you top cover. People give top cover.

Second, do you even know what the "stand at attention" part of the protocol reg even says? It doesn't give officers permission to light people up and make them stand at attention. It says juniors will stand at attention when addressed by a senior ranking officer. So--taking that part of the reg literally--if you are a captain, you should be at attention when a major asks you a question about the schedule in the hallway of your squadron. And the one chuck behind the desk should snap to attention when you ask for your tail number. It's fucking absurd and therefore it's useless. So where is the "top cover" in it?

What the reg does say that is semi-applicable to your train of thought however is that juniors shall speak to those that outrank them in a respectful and deferential way (paraphrase). But does that really need to be on paper to provide you "top cover" as you say, or do you think everyone can agree that is pretty much obvious?

Your dude didn't get sent home because of a lack of "top cover" in a reg and I can't believe you are so immature that we have to keep talking about it.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Danny Noonin

[Kenny Powers]

I outrank every NCO in the Air Force. I should NEVER have to go toe-to-toe, they should be as respectful of me as I am to any Lt Col. The idea that they are upholding standards by being rude to superior officers is ridiculous, but as long as our senior leadership backs it, there's not much the CGO corps can do if our own chain of command wants to toss us under the bus because SSgt Snuffy works directly for the OG or WG/CC.

Technically this is correct but if the officer is being a dick, expect the same reaction from the enlisted. Respect goes both ways and is generally desereved on both ends.

And the TSgt. was correct, dont wear your sunglasses on your head. He made a correction, the Major acted like a douche and ignored him which was disrespectful to the TSgt., so he went to his chain of command.

Oh and someone saying something you don't want to hear does not justify calling the them rude, asshole, whatever.

EDIT: Read over the part about "yelling across the chow hall". If that happened, thats a dumbass move but it sounds too stupid to be true. There's two sides to every story.

Edited September 3, 2012 by Kenny Powers

[Danny Noonin]

And the TSgt. was correct, dont wear your sunglasses on your head. He made a correction, the Major acted like a douche and ignored him which was disrespectful to the TSgt., so he went to his chain of command.

Holy shit, really? Are you people this dysfunctional?

Because a major ignores a TSgt, that warrants the TSgt telling on him to his "chain of command"? Are you fucking kidding me? Is this kindergarden?

[Kenny Powers]

Holy shit, really? Are you people this dysfunctional?

Because a major ignores a TSgt, that warrants the TSgt telling on him to his "chain of command"? Are you ######ing kidding me? Is this kindergarden?

Not saying I agree with it but technically he was not in the wrong. He corrected the Major, the Major ignored him, and instead of the TSgt. going over there and causing an even bigger seen, he used the chain of command.

Like it or not, it was not technically wrong.

And you all have serious ######ing problems if you think your officership qualifies you as any better of a person.

You people? Way to show your ass dipshit.

Edited September 3, 2012 by Kenny Powers

[Danny Noonin]

Not saying I agree with it but technically he was not in the wrong. He corrected the Major, the Major ignored him, and instead of the TSgt. going over there and causing an even bigger seen, he used the chain of command.

Like it or not, it was not technically wrong.

And you all have serious ######ing problems if you think your officership qualifies you as any better of a person.

You people? Way to show your ass dipshit.

"You people" did not refer to enlisted people. Nothing to do with rank. It referred to all the idiots who cannot put minor shit into perspective and/or deal with things like grownups without telling on each other or needing regs to back them up on basic professional relations.

So on the "technically wrong" part...according to this story, the TSgt made this "correction" (a bullshit term) from across a chow hall. Don't know/don't care, but it doesn't sound like it was quietly done in close proximity. So...yes that is technically wrong. Just as it would be "technically wrong" for me to do the same in reverse. That's not how to handle "corrections" professionally or respectfully.

[17D_guy]

Not saying I agree with it but technically he was not in the wrong. He corrected the Major, the Major ignored him, and instead of the TSgt. going over there and causing an even bigger seen, he used the chain of command.

Like it or not, it was not technically wrong.

And you all have serious ######ing problems if you think your officership qualifies you as any better of a person.

You people? Way to show your ass dipshit.

Copy, I'll be screaming across a chow hall at the OG/CC for having his FDU sleeves around his elbows and morale patch. Thanks for clearing up who's in the wrong on this one.

[daynightindicator]

the Maj in question is a good friend of mine - he's not a douche but he also doesn't take bullshit from people that's not warranted. a TSgt yelling across the chow hall at an FGO is bullshit. the Major's argument with the Lt Col was not about sunglasses but rather the unprofessional "correction" by the TSgt. the situation escalated unnecessarily after that to the point where eventually SF was summoned and IDs were confiscated. the "punishment" was horseshit as well - the situation had absolutely nothing to do with flying or evaluator duties. the OG at the time was known for those kind of decisions unfortunately.

the biggest problem is people don't mind their own f*cking business. if i have my sunglasses on my head, it's none of that TSgts god-damned business unless he works directly for me or is otherwise in my chain of command. this "correction" atmosphere needs to change.

that being said, staying within regs is an easy way to avoid this crap and focus on the important stuff.

[ThreeHoler]

the Maj in question is a good friend of mine - he's not a douche but he also doesn't take bullshit from people that's not warranted. a TSgt yelling across the chow hall at an FGO is bullshit. the Major's argument with the Lt Col was not about sunglasses but rather the unprofessional "correction" by the TSgt. the situation escalated unnecessarily after that to the point where eventually SF was summoned and IDs were confiscated. the "punishment" was horseshit as well - the situation had absolutely nothing to do with flying or evaluator duties. the OG at the time was known for those kind of decisions unfortunately.

Sounds like your friend got out of line too, if someone called SF. Winning!

the biggest problem is people don't mind their own f*cking business. if i have my sunglasses on my head, it's none of that TSgts god-damned business unless he works directly for me or is otherwise in my chain of command. this "correction" atmosphere needs to change.

Welcome to the military. We have standards and rules. If you are outside the rules, expect to be corrected. Grow up.

[AZwildcat]

This whole thread is ridiculous...the fact that we have eroded into a culture where it is ok for some goober to call out a superior from across a f^cking chow hall and not be backhanded for it is a sad, sad fact. Those of you who are of the line of thinking that this ok because it is "the rules" and if you can't follow simple rules, how can you be trusted to follow rules in the air...you are just part of the problem. The current leadership has screwed the pooch by enabling this logic and empowering the "chief syndrome"...it's like a virus that ultimately undercuts our ability to do our job.

Edited August 31, 2012 by AZwildcat