AFI 1-1 (AF Culture/Standards)

[Seriously]

This whole thread is ridiculous...the fact that we have eroded into a culture where it is ok for some goober to call out a superior from across a f^cking chow hall and not be backhanded for it is a sad, sad fact. Those of you who are of the line of thinking that this ok because it is "the rules" and if you can't follow simple rules, how can you be trusted to follow rules in the air...you are just part of the problem. The current leadership has screwed the pooch by enabling this logic and empowering the "chief syndrome"...it's like a virus that ultimately undercuts our ability to do our job.

Exactly. It is ridiculous. There are a shitload of officers that need to sack up. You either tolerate or you don't. Insubordination is far more detrimental to the mission than the color of your socks.

[daynightindicator]

Sounds like your friend got out of line too, if someone called SF. Winning!

Welcome to the military. We have standards and rules. If you are outside the rules, expect to be corrected. Grow up.

the Lt Col called SF because the Maj refused to surrender his ID. IMHO the Lt Col could have handled the situation with much less drama.

i don't expect to be corrected unprofessionally and in public by someone whom i outrank. it's called insubordination. would you yell across the room at your wing commander if was missing a reflective belt?

[guineapigfury]

i don't expect to be corrected unprofessionally and in public by someone whom i outrank. it's called insubordination. would you yell across the room at your wing commander if was missing a reflective belt?

Are they no longer teaching "Superiors correct, subordinates inform"?

[Blackjack]

TSgt yelling across the chow hall at an FGO is bullshit.

The TSgt should have pulled him aside and said something about the sunglasses. Anyone shouting across a chowhall to correct somebody is wrong. At that point it's not about correction and more about "chest pounding'. With that said, do you think it's even plausible that the TSgt was egged on ny the higher leadership he was eating with? I only ask because I have seen it.

the Major's argument with the Lt Col was not about sunglasses but rather the unprofessional "correction" by the TSgt. the situation escalated unnecessarily after that to the point where eventually SF was summoned and IDs were confiscated. the "punishment" was horseshit as well - the situation had absolutely nothing to do with flying or evaluator duties. the OG at the time was known for those kind of decisions unfortunately.

While I agree with the Majors argument as you state it. How else do you expect the LtCol to handle it? You can scream all day until you are blue in the face for someone to give their ID card. If they don't do it, what other option do you have?

the biggest problem is people don't mind their own f*cking business. if i have my sunglasses on my head, it's none of that TSgts god-damned business unless he works directly for me or is otherwise in my chain of command. this "correction" atmosphere needs to change.

Seriously dude? How does that look to everyone else that sees you? How can the TSgt explain to the A1C that he can't wear his sunglasses on his head in the chowhall when he sees some Maj do it? Leading by example and all that good stuff. Just because you wear a bag doesn't mean people don't look at you, even if you aren't in their chain of command. They look at you even more than the officers that lead them.

that being said, staying within regs is an easy way to avoid this crap and focus on the important stuff.

F^&king truth right here. You don't want to be called out, then have your shit straight. Lead by example , not what you want.

[guineapigfury]

While I agree with the Majors argument as you state it. How else do you expect the LtCol to handle it? You can scream all day until you are blue in the face for someone to give their ID card. If they don't do it, what other option do you have?

Unless that Lt Col is security forces at the front gate or works for comm and wants to load some certificates onto that CAC, what business would he have with someone else's ID? He couldn't get the major's name off his uniform?

[17D_guy]

Seriously dude? How does that look to everyone else that sees you? How can the TSgt explain to the A1C that he can't wear his sunglasses on his head in the chowhall when he sees some Maj do it? Leading by example and all that good stuff.

2 techniques -

1) Had Amn ask me why they had to do something when aircrew didn't. Appropriate response is "Shut the fck up, I own you, not them."

2) When I was in Korea they were pushing no headphones while running on the street hard. We were doing group runs w/ the DO Maj "leading" us. We pull around the corner and this dude rolls by on the street in PT gear with headphones in and we point it out. Maj says, "He's a pilot" and we roll on. However, this confirmed the Maj was a douch to the rest of the Sq, but we already suspected.

[WABoom]

I would hope that someone (crusty MSgt like myself) in the chow hall would of pulled that TSgt aside and told them how ridiculous they were and "mentored" them on how to deal with this situation in the future. I have said on this site before, if I am ever going to say something to an officer I will pull them aside, not openly yell. And that's only if the infraction is so bad (rarely seen) that it warranted me saying anything at all. Again, a firm believer that officers should correct officers and I will continue to teach my subordinates my way of thinking. Mission being the focus is lost, that's why this happens. Happy Labor Day folks!

[JarheadBoom]

Probably something about how having anything but your ID card in your pocket while wearing chucks is unprofessional, so you should put your wallet in your sock.

Fixed.

As far as what the USMC would think... If an enlisted Marine were to yell something as colossally stupid as "HEY YOU! Get your sunglasses off your head!" to a Marine major, that would be one of the last days at that rank for that enlisted Marine.

I've told the story here before, but I once pulled a dumbass stunt of publicly calling out a Marine captain about a "do as I say, not as I do" leadership fail on his part. I was extremely lucky to walk away from that episode with my rank intact, and it was only because my OIC was shit-hot.

[Murph]

This whole thread is ridiculous...the fact that we have eroded into a culture where it is ok for some goober to call out a superior from across a f^cking chow hall and not be backhanded for it is a sad, sad fact. Those of you who are of the line of thinking that this ok because it is "the rules" and if you can't follow simple rules, how can you be trusted to follow rules in the air...you are just part of the problem. The current leadership has screwed the pooch by enabling this logic and empowering the "chief syndrome"...it's like a virus that ultimately undercuts our ability to do our job.

I agree that some random NCO rudely calling out an FGO about a rule violation is a culture problem. Like someone else said, the FGO and every other officer should have no problem admitting the accidental "infraction" but should then put the NCO in his place for how to respectfully handle said situation. And if said NCO is caught screwing up his primary job, then someone needs to talk to him about how he can spend more time worried about his job than other people's appearance.

I'm curious though, does anyone here advocate intentionally breaking a grooming/sunglass/whatever standard if there's no reason for it?

[Kenny Powers]

I'm curious though, does anyone here advocate intentionally breaking a grooming/sunglass/whatever standard if there's no reason for it?

Do people unintentionally break grooming standards? I mean, we all know the regs., they aren't that complicated, so can anyone honestly say they "accidentally" weren't within them? With the exception of being TDY/Deployed and not knowing a local standard.

[Murph]

Do people unintentionally break grooming standards? I mean, we all know the regs., they aren't that complicated, so can anyone honestly say they "accidentally" weren't within them? With the exception of being TDY/Deployed and not knowing a local standard.

Maybe grooming was too specific. I was talking about overall appearance. I'm betting I'm not the only one who forgot to tuck in my shirt before leaving my hooch.

[magnetfreezer]

Do people unintentionally break grooming standards? I mean, we all know the regs., they aren't that complicated, so can anyone honestly say they "accidentally" weren't within them? With the exception of being TDY/Deployed and not knowing a local standard.

Most guys in my squadron don't typically shave in the CAS wheel, so it's a little hard for them to avoid showing stubble after a 14 hour mission. I guess that's intentional though. Finding the right airport and putting the gear down isn't that complicated most of the time either, but it gets unintentionally jacked up occasionally too.

[Jaded]

I intentionally break grooming standards everyday when I clip a knife to my flight suit and attach a finger light to my zipper. Maybe I deserve an article 92 for failure to obey a regulation.

[Murph]

I intentionally break grooming standards everyday when I clip a knife to my flight suit and attach a finger light to my zipper. Maybe I deserve an article 92 for failure to obey a regulation.

You and CAS wheel obviously didn't read what I said about a reason for doing something. Clipping a finger light to your zipper to help find your member is fair.

[nsplayr]

...or when you don't fully zip your flight cap pocket when you take your hat out. There's no reason for doing this other than pure laziness (and because it's a trivial and non-sensical rule anyways) yet every single flyer I know does it. What say you to that?

Edited September 4, 2012 by nsplayr

[Guest]

Pages of discussion about sunglasses an NCO and two officers. What kind of bullshit is this.

The worst possible behavior is the OG who decided to send someone home for something like this.

Sounds to me like a bunch of herbivores trying to act like full up "downrange warriors" and the only guy with any balls gets sent home.

[BONE WSO]

He actually did not get sent home. He was only there to drop off a jet and bring another one back. He wasn't deployed there at the time. SF tried to file charges of Failure to Obey a Lawful Order on him for not surrendering his ID when a senior officer requested it. His punishment was to get taken off of evaluator orders back at home. He was also forbidden from going back to the Deid and did not go with us on the next deployment.

[BONE WSO]

To be fair, I think he liked to push the limits on the regs a lot. For example, he would wear a tan t-shirt and nike shorts to the gym instead of the official PT uniform. He did this for awhile until the OG/CD, another B-1 guy, saw him at the gym and asked him WTF? He made a name for himself then. He had a couple incidents like that so I don't think anybody found it unexpected when that happened at the chow hall.

[Seriously]

To be fair, I think he liked to push the limits on the regs a lot. For example, he would wear a tan t-shirt and nike shorts to the gym instead of the official PT uniform. He did this for awhile until the OG/CD, another B-1 guy, saw him at the gym and asked him WTF? He made a name for himself then. He had a couple incidents like that so I don't think anybody found it unexpected when that happened at the chow hall.

A tan t-shirt and nike shorts? This guy got what was coming to him.

[pawnman]

He actually did not get sent home. He was only there to drop off a jet and bring another one back. He wasn't deployed there at the time. SF tried to file charges of Failure to Obey a Lawful Order on him for not surrendering his ID when a senior officer requested it. His punishment was to get taken off of evaluator orders back at home. He was also forbidden from going back to the Deid and did not go with us on the next deployment.

Worked out in the end, though, because instead of being stuck in OGV he was sent back to the squadron, and from there he went to school.

The point of the story boils down to this: TSgt didn't like the response he got, and whined to daddy about it. That pretty much sums up how things are going in the Air Force at large, and why I, for one, feel the whole "You're the officer, just sack up and tell the enlisted dude to shove it" stance isn't a feasible one if you intend to stick around for any length of time. If you're already planning to get out when your commitment is up, feel free to offer any response you want.

[Fuzz]

New guy on the block, what is the point of surrendering your ID and how does that work with the requirement to have you ID with you at all times?

[HU&W]

You're required to retain your ID unless ordered to surrender it by "Military Authority". There's some ambiguity and interpretation when it comes to what that is. Usually it's interpreted as an officer in your chain of command or a designated authority (SF) and will happen when you are subject to confinement or forcibly removed from the installation.

[Kenny Powers]

I don't understand why so many people have a problem with following these regs. Why does anyone give a shit what we look like in our PT gear? Why does anyone give a shit about having to wear a reflective belt? Its stupid.

I understand it also doesn't make sense enforcing these kinds of things at an extreme level but rules are rules and this is the military.The only way to mitigate getting bitched at about them is just to follow them and carry on with your life.

The amount of bitching and whining I hear about reflective belts or PT gear or this and that is ridiculous.

If you are really worried about what you look like in your PT gear or feeling dumb about wearing a refletive belt, you're a ######.

If you aren't worried about that but just don't want to follow the rules, you're an idiot. Then, when you get bitched at, suck it up and don't cry like a baby about it.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Kenny Powers

[Marco]

Because PT gear and reflective belts are gay.

[guineapigfury]

I don't understand why so many people have a problem with following these regs. Why does anyone give a shit what we look like in our PT gear? Why does anyone give a shit about having to wear a reflective belt? Its stupid.

I understand it also doesn't make sense enforcing these kinds of things at an extreme level but rules are rules and this is the military.The only way to mitigate getting bitched at about them is just to follow them and carry on with your life.

I recall my 2nd day in Afghanistan, trying to find the chow hall with several others. We stopped and looked at each other: every one of us in PT uniform, reflective belt, DCU pattern boonie hat, pistol and holster. We all laughed at the ridiculousness of our appearance and then carried on. Noone is upset that they look ridiculous. What does grate is that:

A. There are people dumb enough to actually give a shit about minor uniform infractions in a war zone

B. There are a disturbing number of these buffoons in positions of actual responsibility

Edited September 4, 2012 by guineapigfury