10percenttruth Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Dearest Sir. I thank you for your thoughtful and insightful internet forum posting. After reviewing your sage words, I now see that all other advise I've seen on this message board is wrong and I am incorrect to follow such folly. I hearby pledge to listen to you because your advise and experience are far more superior. If you have the time, I'd am seeking advise on many issues. For example, for those 1st Lts that were recently passed over, what can they do to fix the travesty? The election will upon us and I still haven't decided if I should vote as I heard from a liberal once that military people should remain apolitical and thus not participate in selecting their civilian leadership. Should I vote anyway, and if so, who should I vote for? I thank you for your time, as I'm sure it is quite valuable as a very senior person of vast responsibility. We are truely blessed that you are able to take the time to participate. Regards, Mr Golami Whoa! Don't ask someone for advice on teh interwebz! The internet posters are evil & dumb & smelly! Not SOF though, he's different from all the other internet posters because... um... because he's... not rainman? Wait, i'm confused. If only there was someone here i could worship & turn to for advice. Someone who knows the value of posting online all day while pointing out how frivolous it is to post online all day...
Day Man Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 conspiracy theory: SiS is Rainman...like Jekyll & Hyde, except with bourbon. 1
Napoleon_Tanerite Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 conspiracy theory: SiS is Rainman...like Jekyll & Hyde, except with bourbon.
Wing Sweep Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Great advice for an MR pilot. Not a conversation anyone would imagine having with a UPT/UNT pipeline guy. I would expect the CSAF himself to come unglued over this level of buffoonery. This is on the local commanders to fix. I would also add that this is on the highest leadership to fix as well... I hope the CSAF realizes the current system of LT to Capt promotions is f'ing retarded. Get rid of promotion boards for LTs! What the heck are we doing to ourselves? This is simply crazy! If anything, let CCs pick the bottom feeding 10% of their LTs rather than having to fight to see who is in the top 90%. My recommendation is go back to 4 years= auto Captain. If you suck, then it's up to your CC to fight to not promote you. It shouldn't be the other way around where they are currently fighting to get dudes promoted (or in the case of the FTU guys, no one is even fighting for them). *These percentages are just examples, not sure what the real numbers are for LT to Capt promotions.
ziploc158 Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 One more: what the f*ck is a SURF? -2Lt Basically it’s your military resume, it tells you everything you have done (PME, where you graduated and with what degree, jobs you had in the squadron, medals you have received, any additional languages, flight hours etc)
Napoleon_Tanerite Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Basically it’s your military resume, it tells you everything you have done (PME, where you graduated and with what degree, jobs you had in the squadron, medals you have received, any additional languages, flight hours etc) I think he was playing a role there. We are getting all wound up about stuff that a lot of us take for granted. See my drown out post from page 7 I think we (and I'm talking about Capts here) owe our new CPs/wingmen/FAIPs a sit down and a good solid rundown of the "records stuff". I know it sounds and feels like pouring a nice tall glass of kool-aid, but most of these guys have no clue how to check their SURF (and make corrections) and to verify that everything in their record is accurate (and present). I know I didn't really figure this stuff out until it would have been too late to correct things before having to meet an O-3 board. I was talking to a brand new FAIP here at PIT the other day and he didn't even know what a SURF was, let along how incredibly important it is to keep it up to date and correct. No foul on him, it's not something you generally are taught unless someone takes the time and shows you. We can bitch and piss and moan about how broken the system is, and I wholeheartedly agree, but until the system is fixed we owe it to our junior bros to make sure they are in the best position possible to weather the storm.
ziploc158 Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Hahaha, I think your right, between being deployed to a complete shithole, and being passed over, I think I am not even able to read anymore without my eyes bleeding
Kilgore Trout Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Basically it’s your military resume, it tells you everything you have done (PME, where you graduated and with what degree, jobs you had in the squadron, medals you have received, any additional languages, flight hours etc) But as 3 different people from AFPC and AFIT have told me while trying to correct information on my SURF: "A SURF is an unofficial document, sometimes things don't translate to there correctly so don't worry as long as your actual records are correct. No one should be using your SURF for any official purpose anyway..." So no one uses it for any official purpose anyway, right?
Napoleon_Tanerite Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 But as 3 different people from AFPC and AFIT have told me while trying to correct information on my SURF: "A SURF is an unofficial document, sometimes things don't translate to there correctly so don't worry as long as your actual records are correct. No one should be using your SURF for any official purpose anyway..." So no one uses it for any official purpose anyway, right? Well, aside from being the cover sheet of the right side of your official record that meets a board, but... you know... nothing too official
Danny Noonin Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Well, aside from being the cover sheet of the right side of your official record that meets a board, but... you know... nothing too official The SURF is not the document that meets the board. It's the "Officer Selection Record" or something like that. It looks similar to a SURF, but is not the same thing.
Cap-10 Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 The SURF is not the document that meets the board. It's the "Officer Selection Record" or something like that. It looks similar to a SURF, but is not the same thing. Officer Selection Brief (OSB). Cheers, Cap-10
Shoe clerk 4 life Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Officer Selection Brief (OSB). Cheers, Cap-10 Don't want to come in as a douche on the first post, but to be technically correct, it's actually called your Duty Qualification History Brief, or "DQHB". What you're thinking of is the Officer Pre-selection Brief, or "OPB", which is the unofficial document that the member gets to review 150 days prior to their promotion board date. The member is given 30 days to review the 1 page OPB and inform their commander of any mistakes in their record. After 30 days, the OPB then becomes your DQHB (if no changes, these 2 documents are identical), and this is what meets the board. *Full disclosure ... I'm a 1st Lt with a year as a Wing Exec under my belt and also have sat on promotion boards at the base and MAJCOM level. Take it FWIW.
Danny Noonin Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Full disclosure ... I'm a 1st Lt with a year as a Wing Exec under my belt and also have sat on promotion boards at the base and MAJCOM level. Take it FWIW. You do understand that promotion boards don't happen at the base and MAJCOM level and 1Lts don't sit on promotion boards...don't you? Otherwise, good info in your post above.
17D_guy Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) Get rid of promotion boards for LTs! What the heck are we doing to ourselves? ###### that, boards for promotion to 1Lt! ...it's up to your CC to fight to not promote you. It shouldn't be the other way around where they are currently fighting to get dudes promoted (or in the case of the FTU guys, no one is even fighting for them)... You're asking for commanders to actually tell someone they suck. I believe that's called leadership. If you find it in your Sq let me know so I can actually see what it looks like, its been awhile. You do understand that promotion boards don't happen at the base and MAJCOM level and 1Lts don't sit on promotion boards...don't you? Otherwise, good info in your post above. He could have been one of those "helpers" that go. I've had a couple buds do that for our Comm Cyber O5 boards. However... how are you (Shoe Clerk) Wing Exec'ing as a 1Lt for a year? That speaks to a whole host of other problems. EDIT - Clarity, Spelling and Grammer Edited October 25, 2012 by 17D_guy
Shoe clerk 4 life Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 You do understand that promotion boards don't happen at the base and MAJCOM level and 1Lts don't sit on promotion boards...don't you? Otherwise, good info in your post above. Roger that ... technically I sat on IMLRs and MLRs, however, that would be speaking chineese to most on this board, so I just used the blanket term "Promotion Board". The IMLR (Base Level) and MLR (MAJCOM Level) are where the remaining aggregate DP's are given out (left over from Wing/CC's and other Senior Raters). There are 1Lt's and Captains that do sit on promotion boards, but they are there for administrivia purposes only, which is the same function that I served on the IMLRs and MLRs ... we get all the packages together, separate the DP's, P's, and DNP's, etc... basically whatever the generals need done to make the process go smoother. On a side note, to the poster that stated he had his or a buddies PRF go up to the promotion board blank, I just cannot see how that can happen. There are way too many checks and balances for this to happen. Take any of the below boards for 2012 ... at each of the dates on the left, that PRF would be going through the SQ Exec, SQ/CC, Group Exec, Group/CC, Wing Exec, and finally Wing/CC. After it goes back and forth between them a few times, it gets turned in to the local MPF to go up to the IMLR and then MLR (all three of these would have an admin staff that would go through each package 1 by 1). After all three of these, the PRF would go to AFPC, and then to the board. Having been a Group Exec, Wing Exec, and sitting on an IMLR and MLR, I just cannot fathom that a package can make it to the promotion board "blank" (unless it's a DP for Captain or an O-6 that's not making O-7, these are the only times a PRF will be blank). On the topic at hand, I think it's ridiculous that rated officers aren't "auto-selected" to O-3 after all the training spent on you guys. If the member has some failed PT tests, UIF, DUI, Article 15, sure, cut his ass regardless of AFSC. One other misconception on the promotion process that I've seen being thrown around here ... there are only TWO documents that meet a promotion board, your DQHB (essentially your official SURF) and your PRF. The board does not see any of your training reports, OPRs, Decoration write-ups, etc... So for the few that have been claiming "maybe a missing training report was the reason 1st Lt was non-selected", is most likely not true. Would be happy to clarify any other questions for the Lt's on the promotion process.
Jughead Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) unless it's a DP for Captain or an O-6 that's not making O-7, these are the only times a PRF will be blank Plenty of other times PRFs can be blank (eg, for BPZ or APZ boards). To the point, some of the early guidance on these O-3 boards was to send up the DPs blank (since to an even greater degree than other boards, these were "auto-promotes") and provide the bullets for the Ps; that may have changed, but I know that's how my squadron was doing it initially. So for the few that have been claiming "maybe a missing training report was the reason 1st Lt was non-selected", is most likely not true. DQHB includes dates of performance reports--so, a missing report (whether missing in error or "missing" due to pipeline training) would show to the board. EDIT: format problem Edited October 25, 2012 by Jughead
Danny Noonin Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Roger that ... technically I sat on IMLRs and MLRs, There are 1Lt's and Captains that do sit on promotion boards, but they are there for administrivia purposes only. No. You 1Lts and Captains do not "sit on promotion boards". Being their admin bitch boy does not make you part of the actual board. i.e. you do not sit down and grade packages. so to speak. One other misconception on the promotion process that I've seen being thrown around here ... there are only TWO documents that meet a promotion board, your DQHB (essentially your official SURF) and your PRF. The board does not see any of your training reports, OPRs, Decoration write-ups, etc... So for the few that have been claiming "maybe a missing training report was the reason 1st Lt was non-selected", is most likely not true. Would be happy to clarify any other questions for the Lt's on the promotion process. False for O-4+ boards. Can't speak to captains boards. Actual promotion boards absolutely do see all of your OPRs, medal citations and training reports. I don't know what they do at MLRs, but the actual promotion boards do see that stuff.
Fuzz Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Words.... Would be happy to clarify any other questions for the Lt's on the promotion process.
slackline Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Cgjohnst - any updates on your status? C'mon, you can't ignore the call outs and still post like nothing's happened. You demanded to know about Rainman, you got it. Fess up.
Napoleon_Tanerite Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 C'mon, you can't ignore the call outs and still post like nothing's happened. You demanded to know about Rainman, you got it. Fess up. 3
Wing Sweep Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) ###### that, boards for promotion to 1Lt! You're asking for commanders to actually tell someone they suck. I believe that's called leadership. If you find it in your Sq let me know so I can actually see what it looks like, its been awhile. EDIT - Clarity, Spelling and Grammer *sts disclaimer for wording in this post 17D, My current commander has no problem telling someone they suck. He also expects each person to fess up when they suck or do something wrong (i.e. calling a spade a spade). I've had to do that once or twice in my career for what I would call pretty major stuff --- "Sir, we need to talk. I just f'ed something up bigger than Dallas..." I used to think the only people that made mistakes were those that sucked. Then I grew up, made my own mistakes and learned how life really works. Everyone makes mistakes sooner or later...everyone. I can say I've found true leadership in about 50% of my squadrons (through 14 years). Agree, it's not everywhere and I'm sorry for those who have not experienced it. It is truly awesome to have squadron commanders that lead. Conversely, it is an unfathomable state of crap when you have a squadron commander that is not a leader. Edited October 25, 2012 by g2s
Napoleon_Tanerite Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 *sts disclaimer for wording in this post 17D, My current commander has no problem telling someone they suck. He also expects each person to fess up when they suck or do something wrong (i.e. calling a spade a spade). I've had to do that once or twice in my career for what I would call pretty major stuff --- "Sir, we need to talk. I just f'ed something up bigger than Dallas..." I used to think the only people that made mistakes were those that sucked. Then I grew up, made my own mistakes and learned how life really works. Everyone makes mistakes sooner or later...everyone. I can say I've found true leadership in about 50% of my squadrons (through 14 years). Agree, it's not everywhere and I'm sorry for those who have not experienced it. It is truly awesome to have squadron commanders that lead. Conversely, it is an unfathomable state of crap when you have a squadron commander that is not a leader. The problem with "typical" leadership is two fold. First is the aforementioned aversion to giving criticism when its due, but the other part is FAR more dangerous. A truly bad leader (and I've seen more of these than any other kind) creates an environment where people are fearful of admitting mistakes because they know that "leader" will not have their back, and will actively pursue punishment against the individual. I'm not saying that people who commit crimes (I'm talking true criminal acts here) shouldn't be dealt with properly, but when you are scared to tell the boss you screwed up in the jet because you know he'll insta-Q3 you and probably cut you an LOR it creates a strong motivation to keep things quiet. Best case scenario is it prevents others from learning from your mistakes, and worst case it can lead to a mishap.
17D_guy Posted October 26, 2012 Posted October 26, 2012 The problem with "typical" leadership is two fold. First is the aforementioned aversion to giving criticism when its due, but the other part is FAR more dangerous. A truly bad leader (and I've seen more of these than any other kind) creates an environment where people are fearful of admitting mistakes because they know that "leader" will not have their back, and will actively pursue punishment against the individual. I'm not saying that people who commit crimes (I'm talking true criminal acts here) shouldn't be dealt with properly, but when you are scared to tell the boss you screwed up in the jet because you know he'll insta-Q3 you and probably cut you an LOR it creates a strong motivation to keep things quiet. Best case scenario is it prevents others from learning from your mistakes, and worst case it can lead to a mishap. THIS. I've seen so many "leaders" more worried about looking bad than actually having something bad happen, or wanting to take a stand. g2s, glad you've got that leadership. I've had it a couple times as well in almost 13 years. It's probably the reason I stayed in.
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