Appealing a promotion board

[duece123]

Nice try, but there is more to it than that.

Not really. I literally did not do anything besides call finance and get some captains bars on the bag. So from my point of view, there was not more to it than that.

Just to clarify..... I am amazed at all the bs that the AD brethren must go through to get kicked in the nuts like some of these guys do (if all these post are true). Good luck guys, I hope you get this settled quickly

[Spaceballs]

I'd like to say what airframe it is, but I don't want to release it publicly like this just for the confidentiality of the other guys in it.

The big thing for me is that I am totally fine getting passed over for others who are better than me and deserve it. I am absolutely not ok getting passed over while people who washed back in flight school are selected. If you wash back and graduate at the bottom of your class, you should not be promoted over guys at/near the top of their classes in Pensacola and the FTU. Promotion Boards are based on performance. Retention Boards are for career fields.

Also, the reply about <30 days for seeing your PRF. We were called into the training sq office to see it(and sign something I thought) the day it was sent in. Just more to appeal it on? Right now, my "justifications" for appeal are that we believe something administratively went wrong based on every single person in the schoolhouse being nonselected and that I saw my PRF less than 30 days from the submission. I'm trying to think of how to justify asking my sq/cc to take it up the chain. Saying "wash backs made it and I didn't" doesn't really sound good enough.

[Cap-10]

Another tid-bit: Your rater is supposed to give you your PRF NLT 30 days prior to the board commencing...this is supposed to give you time to review in case of errors (and submit any letters to the board).

For those that were passed over and you saw your PRF < 30 days prior (or didn't see it at all), make sure that is brough up during your appeal process.

I'll try to find the AFI reference and repost later.

Best of luck to you guys!

Cheers,

Cap-10

https://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/afi36-2501.pdf

1.6. Senior Rater.

Reviews the officer’s record of performance (including boards where promotion opportunity is 100%) and other information as outlined in the pre-board MPFM, prepares the AF Information Management Tool (IMT) 709, Promotion Recommendation Form (PRF), and provides the officer a copy approximately 30 days before a Central Selection Board.

Cheers,

Cap-10

[17D_guy]

I'd like to say what airframe it is, but I don't want to release it publicly like this just for the confidentiality of the other guys in it.

The big thing for me is that I am totally fine getting passed over for others who are better than me and deserve it. I am absolutely not ok getting passed over while people who washed back in flight school are selected. If you wash back and graduate at the bottom of your class, you should not be promoted over guys at/near the top of their classes in Pensacola and the FTU. Promotion Boards are based on performance. Retention Boards are for career fields.

Also, the reply about <30 days for seeing your PRF. We were called into the training sq office to see it(and sign something I thought) the day it was sent in. Just more to appeal it on? Right now, my "justifications" for appeal are that we believe something administratively went wrong based on every single person in the schoolhouse being nonselected and that I saw my PRF less than 30 days from the submission. I'm trying to think of how to justify asking my sq/cc to take it up the chain. Saying "wash backs made it and I didn't" doesn't really sound good enough.

Having had to hand hold my Navy supervision through this process (and the shitty O5 that made me write my own PRF) I can tell you that AFI is full of goodness for your situation. It's not full of feelings and interpretation like some other ones (ex. 36-2903). It clearly lays out who will do what when.

Read it, learn it. Take it with edfsr's post and work it (STS). The worst that could happen is you wait a year for O3.

Besides.. it's not like a Capt/Maj exec is going to get in trouble or held responsible. That never happens.

[BQZip01]

^^^

Valid

Dude - they're talking about the CAPTAIN promotion board.

Sarcasm dude. Sarcasm.

and seriously, does it fucking matter if it were in reference to the major's board? The same principles are there.

Edited October 8, 2012 by BQZip01

[Chida]

I think it's funny there's so much indignation in regards to Lt's getting passed over, and there's so much RIGHTEOUS indignation as to majors getting passed over and not continued, yet there's indifference to Captains getting passed over on this message board. Just an observation.

[17D_guy]

I think it's funny there's so much indignation in regards to Lt's getting passed over, and there's so much RIGHTEOUS indignation as to majors getting passed over and not continued, yet there's indifference to Captains getting passed over on this message board. Just an observation.

Is there a problem w/ the way that Capts are getting passed over? Legit question, I'm not there, nor are my peers so I'm unqualified to respond.

[Spaceballs]

In my opinion yes. People at the top of their classes shouldn't be passed over when people who wash back in training get selected.

[Dead Last]

I think it's funny there's so much indignation in regards to Lt's getting passed over, and there's so much RIGHTEOUS indignation as to majors getting passed over and not continued, yet there's indifference to Captains getting passed over on this message board. Just an observation.

Is there a problem w/ the way that Capts are getting passed over? Legit question, I'm not there, nor are my peers so I'm unqualified to respond.

No, after the initial shock/anger of being passed over for Major most of us realized that it is a blessing in disguise.

[Guest]

I'

The big thing for me is that I am totally fine getting passed over for others who are better than me and deserve it. I am absolutely not ok getting passed over while people who washed back in flight school are selected. If you wash back and graduate at the bottom of your class, you should not be promoted over guys at/near the top of their classes in Pensacola and the FTU. Promotion Boards are based on performance.

This just got personal, as these things always do.

[ThreeHoler]

The big thing for me is that I am totally fine getting passed over for others who are better than me and deserve it. I am absolutely not ok getting passed over while people who washed back in flight school are selected. If you wash back and graduate at the bottom of your class, you should not be promoted over guys at/near the top of their classes in Pensacola and the FTU. Promotion Boards are based on performance.

You are incorrect. Promotion boards are based on your potential for future performance. They are not a reward for past performance.

[Karl Hungus]

You are incorrect. Promotion boards are based on your potential for future performance. They are not a reward for past performance.

LOL.

[Cap-10]

You are incorrect. Promotion boards are based on your potential for future performance. They are not a reward for past performance.

While you are right it's not a reward for past performance, you can't really separate the two.

If your OPR history shows a trend of mediorce performance and half-assery, then chances are you will continue to be middle ground

If your OPR history show a trend of DG's and "my #1 xyz", chances are you will continue to be a fast burner.

Having said all that, we all know people that turned out to be sh!tty commanders, but got promoted or put on ACC/HAWK list because of who they worked for during their staff tour to the 5 sided wind tunnel.

Cheers,

Hoser

[Spaceballs]

I think I found the problem. A training report was never done from the FTU. I graduated in the beginning of April and the board met in July. Unless I'm going crazy, a training report should have been completed and sent in to th board. All I had that went to the board was an osb, prf, asbc training report, and Pensacola training report.

[Crown]

I think I found the problem. A training report was never done from the FTU. I graduated in the beginning of April and the board met in July. Unless I'm going crazy, a training report should have been completed and sent in to th board. All I had that went to the board was an osb, prf, asbc training report, and Pensacola training report.

Beat me to it. From your post, I gathered you were coming through the Pensacola pipeline and somehow your records did not make it to big blue. I cant say this is surprising or uncommon, but a lesson learned early in your career that is hopefully corrected quickly. As much as we all hate the trend of promotions in the AF and the increased amount of associated queep that seems to matter, it is important to remember that you don't get to stand before the board, your records do. So take it in stride and be sure you are as proactive as possible in making sure they adequately reflect what you have done and are doing.

**of course in UPT I didn't give a sh*t...I was too worried about learning to be a pilot

Edited October 8, 2012 by Crown

[theat6bisasham]

Are we talking about the bomber base that houses AFGSC? I'm pretty sure we are. I'm pretty sure some dudes got screwed...big time. Something went wrong somewhere - there is no reason for qualified, normal dudes to get passed over to captain who were capable enough to graduate UNT.

[Spaceballs]

I'm not a bomber guy. I'm on an AMC platform. All the bomber guys I know got picked up except for a couple. I'm going to try appealing the board as quickly as I can once I find out what happened to my training report.

[Fifty-six & Two]

I think I found the problem. A training report was never done from the FTU. I graduated in the beginning of April and the board met in July. Unless I'm going crazy, a training report should have been completed and sent in to th board. All I had that went to the board was an osb, prf, asbc training report, and Pensacola training report.

I'm going to venture to say that with an accountability date of Feb, the damage was already done on your PRF. I doubt a school house TR would have changed much if you had a P on your PRF. The FTU has 60 days from the grad date to submit the TR to AFPC and I've seen it take as long as 30 more to end up in the individual's record.

I am absolutely not ok getting passed over while people who washed back in flight school are selected. If you wash back and graduate at the bottom of your class, you should not be promoted over guys at/near the top of their classes in Pensacola and the FTU. Promotion Boards are based on performance. Retention Boards are for career fields.

And this comment about someone washing back making them not as good as someone who breezed through couldn't be further from the truth. There are people who struggle at the FTU because something else may be going on outside their control. The goal is to help them get through the program, to include washing them back if needed. As a Lt going through the pipeline, you are not privy to all the information that is going on with troubled students, so don't even begin to think you are automatically better than them.

Edited October 8, 2012 by Fifty-six & Two

[Fud]

This addresses individual non-selection, not squadron wide buffoonery:

Contact the promotion board section at AFPC and get a copy of your record 'As Met' - it's what the board saw. Schedule a 'Non-Select Counseling' appointment and invite your CC to it. Someone from AFPC will go over your record with you (via telephone) and look for errors and offer clues to your non-selection. If there are any errors or something is missing they will tell you how to fix it (may require an appeal to the Board for Corrections of Military Records) and you'll be able to have your record go before a Special Selection Board. If you get picked up from that board it will be the same as if you were promoted from the original board. If not, no harm done. If you don't have cause for the SSB route they will provide advice for strengthening your record for your APZ board. Look around the Promotion section of the MyPers website for phone numbers and more info.

Best of luck.

2 on the great advice here, but make sure you go through an Evaluation Report Appeal Board (ERAB) at AFPC/DPPPPEP. You can also appeal records there I believe. This is a group made up of Air Force officers as opposed to a BCMR and you can correct your records/PRFs with a little less effort than a BCMR. Once you find out what was missing in your record or why you were a non-select, you can rectify the problem. I was filling in for an Exec one time at the OG level, and saw multiple records in one squadron that were incredibly weak for the members' upcoming Capt board. 7/7 were not selected during the process. If the ERAB is not applicable, and you want to go for BCMR, I would wait and file an IG complaint. The results of that complaint can be used in the BCMR as evidence of negligence, etc...I wish you the best of luck, as this process is a total cluster fuck. Another caveat worth mentioning is that the IG sides with the commander 99.99% of the time. I'm going through one of these for other reasons at the moment, and I've had to push hard to get the IG to help me at all at my previous base. It sucks, but well worth the fight.

[Fud]

Absolutely, especially compared to other boards where it is usually less than 5% APZ. It just sucks for these guys who have to wait even though they may not have done a single thing wrong.

I know a lot of people who have "never done anything wrong" and are great people. Some of these folks, not all, are lazy as shit and do not do anything to make their records look better. I chose a long time ago to do what I wanted, volunteer strategically, and do additional duties that I enjoyed (as much as one can) that were somewhat or very high visibility. I don't do these things to kiss ass, but I do them because I really do enjoy public speaking, volunteering in that manner, etc. I've never been the top stratified guy, except once, but I just know that I have absolutely no control over what happens to my future in the Air Force other than QFI, ARI, or anything of that nature.

The volunteering strategically thing has also helped me avoid the shitty additional duties, and my supervisors always think or see that I'm busy. I also get some cool TDYs.

The big thing for me is that I am totally fine getting passed over for others who are better than me and deserve it. I am absolutely not ok getting passed over while people who washed back in flight school are selected. If you wash back and graduate at the bottom of your class, you should not be promoted over guys at/near the top of their classes in Pensacola and the FTU. Promotion Boards are based on performance. Retention Boards are for career fields.

I have to agree with Rainman on this one as to the personal nature of the problem. Hope for the best and prepare for the worst is how I always look at it.

[Guest]

As much as we all hate the trend of promotions in the AF and the increased amount of associated queep that seems to matter, it is important to remember that you don't get to stand before the board, your records do. So take it in stride and be sure you are as proactive as possible in making sure they adequately reflect what you have done and are doing.

Great advice for an MR pilot.

Not a conversation anyone would imagine having with a UPT/UNT pipeline guy.

I would expect the CSAF himself to come unglued over this level of buffoonery. This is on the local commanders to fix.

[17D_guy]

Another caveat worth mentioning is that the IG sides with the commander 99.99% of the time. I'm going through one of these for other reasons at the moment, and I've had to push hard to get the IG to help me at all at my previous base. It sucks, but well worth the fight.

But I thought the IG was independent and worked for me?!

[theat6bisasham]

I'm not a bomber guy. I'm on an AMC platform. All the bomber guys I know got picked up except for a couple. I'm going to try appealing the board as quickly as I can once I find out what happened to my training report.

Bomber guys got hit hard too at the FTU...something like 4 or 5 dudes didn't make it.

[BQZip01]

Another caveat worth mentioning is that the IG sides with the commander 99.99% of the time. I'm going through one of these for other reasons at the moment, and I've had to push hard to get the IG to help me at all at my previous base. It sucks, but well worth the fight.

I did a commander-directed investigation and learned a LOT more about the process.

1. You have a right to talk to ANY IG within your chain of command: the base IG, NAF IG, MAJCOM IG, or AF IG. Local IGs indeed answer to the local commander and if you feel the local IG can't be impartial, you have a right to speak to any of the aforementioned IGs. If anyone impedes your access to an IG or even alludes to it, they can be prosecuted and the AF JAG Corps takes this one pretty seriously if it ever comes to trial; it can be a career ender.

2. You can also talk to your congressman/senator with the same level of impunity. Prosecution for violating this is worse than the above. If all 7 of you have different congressmen/senators, going to all of them en masse may be a viable tactic to get results.

3. It's possible criminal negligence may be involved here. I would HIGHLY recommend keeping your current commander in the loop and consider talking to JAG.

I wish you the best of luck, as this process is a total cluster fuck.

Fuckin' Two

Bomber guys got hit hard too at the FTU...something like 4 or 5 dudes didn't make it.

Doesn't surprise me. They had a Captain get passed over for Major because someone didn't want to type up a PRF.

[Skyryder]

I'm a flyer, and I was passed over for Capt. and notified about it 1 month into a 6 month deployment that I volunteered for (motivating). I wanted to promote just as badly as anyone else, I was even told that my submitted package was "killer" and "super competitive" (as if that was necessary, was what I was thinking...haha) it was interesting to look at the names of those promoted on the portal - to include those who washed back and who did very poorly in pilot training in comparison.

Like many others, I haven't had any negative paper work, my Squadron commander was very apologetic and was essentially in more shock than I was.

Assuming that the Air Force does this again to me this time next year, which I don't have any reason to believe they won't. Does that mean I'm able to seperate almost 8 years prior to my ADSC expiring? How is this a bad thing? Just curious...

I've always heard that your LT years are some of the best years of your career (little to no responsibility) maybe the optimistic way to look at this is to assume Big Blue just wants me to enjoy the best years of my career for ATLEAST one more year.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Skyryder