More SARC briefings soon.

[Flaco]

Where I draw the line is with people that DO play grab ass and make harassing comments because they don't feel that their female co-workers are their equal, and/or don't belong. I'm sure most of the people on this board have seen that at some point in their career.

Not wanting women in combat roles is perfectly fine, so long as you don't treat women like shit because of that belief. Most people have no problem handling that balance. Some don't, and those people make life a lot harder for everyone.

It sounds like you have a pretty balanced view, but the Air Force of late does not. I'll give you an example:

As I've stated publicly, I am of the opinion that women should not be in combat roles. I also let the f-bomb drop from time to time. I'm sure some women at work have heard me say it, although definitely not directed at them. During the last SAPR training we received, we were briefed that cursing creates a "hostile sexual work environment", which is a form of sexual harassment. See what they did there?

Men who don't agree with woman in combat + dropping the F-bomb = Sexual harassers who degrade women because they doesn't feel they're equal.

Nothing could be farther from the truth. I curse, drink, sing fighter pilots songs and raise hell from time to time as generations of fighter pilots have for decades because it goes with the territory. The ideal of the warrior monk is a nice idea, but it just ain't realistic. Warriors will find ways to deal with war as they always have.

As for women in combat, my view is that combat effectiveness is more valuable than pandering to the wishes of a very small segment of society (women who want to be in combat roles). I have yet to hear an effective argument for how women in combat units can increase effectiveness.

But at the end of the day, the feminist lobby and their friends are interested only in the emasculation of men, and the Air Force continues to find new ways to reach that goal.

Regardless of what popular culture says, I believe there is value in men defending and protecting their wives, their children, their country. The idea of a woman being blown apart on a battle field is revolting. What would happen to them in the hands of the enemy is even worse. Where did we go so wrong as a country to believe that women would be elevated by putting them in foxholes?

Edited June 26, 2013 by Flaco

[Murph]

As for women in combat, my view is that combat effectiveness is more valuable than pandering to the wishes of a very small segment of society (women who want to be in combat roles). I have yet to hear an effective argument for how women in combat units can increase effectiveness.

Do an Intelink search for CST and how effective they are for CT in OEF.

[HeloDude]

The lack of media attention has more to do with ratings and attention than any political agenda in my estimation. I tend to think the media is less of a political mastermind and more of an attention whore.

I was talking about attention/agenda from the left--as in the Administration and the high ranking civilians and Generals at the Pentagon. Are you honestly going to tell me that men getting sexually assaulted is what is driving this issue in Congress, the Administration, and the Pentagon?? No, it's not what is driving the conversation. What is driving the conversation are the women being assaulted--ie the Wilkerson case, the AF SARC getting charged with sexually assaulting a woman, the assaults against women at Lackland, women getting harassed and assaulted by recruiters, on and on. Politicians and upper level leadership (who might as well just be politicians) only use the men cases just to drive up the overall statistics.

Fixing the problem of men getting sexually assaulted doesn't doesn't weigh as much compared to fixing the problem of women getting assaulted...you know, it has to do with that whole 'war on women' political discussion. I'm not saying women getting assaulted isn't an important issue and shouldn't be dealt with, just saying that it also fits the political narrative when you try to solve the problem. As for the media, most of television media favors the left and they're going to mostly report on whatever the political left is throwing up as the most important issue of the day. Since the men getting assaulted isn't receiving the political attention, no reason for the media to make it the front and center story.

[busdriver]

What is driving the conversation are the women being assaulted

I agree, my point was that the lack of media attention on male victims isn't about a political agenda, it's because it wouldn't sell, it isn't outrageous enough.

[outbreak]

We had ours today. The basic gist of it was as standard SARC brief, with a very fire-and-brimstone speech by the WG/CC, and more of the same "rape is wrong" training. A lot of it centered on "professionalism." A few of us [single] guys extrapolated that if we cannot talk about the sexual part of our personal lives at work, then ultimate professionalism must be the total elimination of personal conversations at work. First to go is talking about anyones' kids. Children are a direct product of sex, and is therefore inappropriate and unprofessional. From now on, we will be offended by discussions involving dependents of any kind, family days, leave plans or recollections, etc. Pure professionalism...

In other news, I have 1704 days, 16hours, 33min, and 53 seconds till I can separate.

[pawnman]

I was nodding my nugget in agreement until I got to this last part. So I'll let you clarify:

If I don't believe women should be in combat roles, do I need to retire?

If I think I should be allowed to curse, drink, curse while drinking and generally raise hell with the bros after raining death on the enemy is it time for me to retire / separate? When I say raising hell I'm not talking about playing grab ass or making sexual comments to airman hottie. I'm talking about creative uses of the word f*ck (bonus points for multiple parts of speech in the same sentence), singing fighter pilot songs, and other particulars of the fighter pilot tradition that I'm proud to be part of.

There's a pretty big gap between "I don't believe women should be in combat roles" and "I don't believe women should be in the military, period".

[Flaco]

There's a pretty big gap between "I don't believe women should be in combat roles" and "I don't believe women should be in the military, period".

No there's not, at least to those that have declared war on men. In the eyes of the emasculators, if you don't support each new "equality measure" then you are a misogynistic caveman.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Flaco

[pawnman]

No there's not, at least to those that have declared war on men. In the eyes of the emasculators, if you don't support each new "equality measure" then you are a misogynistic caveman.

Sorry you feel that way. I'm pretty sure most of us see the gap between "I don't think women should be crammed into foxholes with a guy" and "I don't think any women should be allowed on the base".

[brickhistory]

Sorry you feel that way. I'm pretty sure most of us see the gap between "I don't think women should be crammed into foxholes with a guy" and "I don't think any women should be allowed on the base".

Some guy named Hagel disagrees with your assessment.

[brickhistory]

https://www.startribune.com/nation/210623791.html

Guy who flew with her said her Friday Club or TDY nametag was "Helen Bedd."

I hope she can make the bad man (DoD overreaction) go away soon.

[Prozac]

Gen Woodward is good shit. That said, I think anyone in her position is going to be pretty strictly limited in the way they attack this issue. Let's hope for the best.

[brickhistory]

https://www.jqpublic-blog.com/?p=449

Maj. Gen. Maggie Woodward’s first step was to open the aperture and ask airmen for their suggestions.

Giggity...

I'm a bad man...

[Snooter]

This is going back to women serving equally in the military. What's the status on female draft registration?

[Liquid]

This is going back to women serving equally in the military. What's the status on female draft registration?

Because after almost twelve years of combat you still think we will have a draft in the next war? Will it make you feel better to pass a law that forces all young women to register to prove a point that women that do serve shouldn't be treated equal? Call your congressmen and let them know you want women to register for a draft. Let us know how that goes.

[M2]

Because after almost twelve years of combat you still think we will have a draft in the next war? Will it make you feel better to pass a law that forces all young women to register to prove a point that women that do serve shouldn't be treated equal? Call your congressmen and let them know you want women to register for a draft. Let us know how that goes.

Doesn't fucking matter, if it is equality they want, then it needs to be across the board...

[HossHarris]

Dibs on the lifeboat!

[Snooter]

Because after almost twelve years of combat you still think we will have a draft in the next war? Will it make you feel better to pass a law that forces all young women to register to prove a point that women that do serve shouldn't be treated equal? Call your congressmen and let them know you want women to register for a draft. Let us know how that goes.

We haven't had a draft in almost 50 years but I still had to pick mine up when I turned 18. I'm just saying if it's equality you want, equality you should get. Be careful what you wish for because you just might get it. On another note, I do think women have every right to serve alongside males, but it's not exactly fair to guys if women have the option but only males have the obligation.

[Tonka]

Because after almost twelve years of combat you still think we will have a draft in the next war? Will it make you feel better to pass a law that forces all young women to register to prove a point that women that do serve shouldn't be treated equal?

By all means, we should wait to enact better draft laws until such time as they are needed. Because War these days takes months to get going and we will have plenty of time for politics while we move our horses to the front line.

Preparing for the next war based on the attributes of the last and current war has worked out so well for us in the past.

[Vprdrvr69]

Our foresight as a military is horrible, but second only to congressional leadership abilities. Without knowing what the next big war will look like, it is so difficult to predict if a draft would be needed. The impact of mass women in the military could also result in unintended consequences. If the draft were implemented equally, don't waste your time asking for my daughter!

As our society erodes and morals disappear, many of us find ourselves at odds with laws that are being written on our behalf by our elected leaders. For some reason, society has spent half of a century trying to make women feel as though their historical roles at home were of limited value. I would argue that the historical role of keeper of the home is of significant value. Society has pushed women into the workforce and picked fights surrounding equality on every front. How did we lose sight of the incredible value placed on holding down the fort and molding our future generations? Why has this been viewed as such a bad thing (To be PC, maybe the man stays home)? Still, the value in properly raising children and keeping the home has been forgotten about in our society. Folks wonder why society has slid straight down the shitter. I would argue that properly raising a family as a contribution to society is one of the most important jobs out there. I never fully realized this until my wife went back to work as a teacher and was exposed to how so much of society takes-on parenting (or lacks to).

Back to equality, now we have woman that want to go do frontline combat. Great. Where in the history of mankind have we thought forcing women into combat was the way forward or a good idea? Why don't we go ahead and send our young children while we're at it? Makes perfect sense too right? Some GI Jane wants to go prove to her recently wed "partner" that she can be a Grunt too; have fun and let her do it. Most jobs in the military can be filled by either gender without any issue. If women want to serve in frontline combat or spec ops roles, and can meet the requirements exactly as written for men, more power to them. But, if some dipshit congressman wants to push for women in the draft because of societal pressures (it will happen), you can fukk off when you come asking for my wife or daughter to sign up.

[Liquid]

Thread transfer the hard way.

g2s said:

"1. I agree 100% we don't need stupid sexist shit to be a warrior. I'm just not sure which stupid sexist shit you are referring to. You speak very well in generalities, but I have yet to hear specifics.

2. The AF has not changed how I nor 99.69% of AF officers act at work because we DO NOT and HAVE NOT condoned or taken part in sex jokes or rape songs in the work place...EVER. Singing and joking that some might deem inappropriate in the workplace, if and when it happens, is done on people's personal time once the J-O-B is done. Again I say, and as you also point out, what we do outside of work (without breaking the law) is our business.

3. It seems the upper officer echelons think there is a sexually perverse (i.e. sexist) mindset across our officer corps that has led to a serious wave of sexual assault and/or mistreatment of women in the workplace. Does sexual misconduct happen in the workplace? Yes, but very rarely! Do I consider this part of the culture? ABSOLUTELY NOT. In fact, I would say women have more opportunities and equality now than ever before in the DoD! It certainly doesn't help that there are high profile cases in the news, displaying certain AF officers as the poster boys of all that is sexually deviant. But I would argue that, by and large, the vast majority of us comply with, accept, and promote equality and professionalism in the workplace.

4. Sexual assualt is not a disease that has all of a sudden infected us wholesale, but rather a few idiots have been highlighted for their very poorly timed improper sexual actions. Political points are now being won in the legislative branch of the Federal government and all DoD members are getting their diapers changed with a new scent of Gold Bond so we can "rid ourselves" of "sexist thinking."

BONUS ... For Pete's sake, the whole .69 thing...take a joke and smile man. If you shut me off at .69, then I would say you have bigger issues to deal with. Just smile, it will make you feel better.

Mods- Sorry for the thread jack. I believe this would be more appropriate in the SARC thread."

Ok, I used stupid sexist specifics earlier but I'll clarify again. Sexist call signs. Word games based on sex like box, head, sts and 69. Doofer books. Songs about raping women. Groping and grabbing women. Playboy bunny patches on flightsuits. Naked women on the wall in the office. Porn clips in crew briefs. Again, nobody really cares what you do on off duty time, but when you wear the uniform or are in a government building or are being paid per diem to be somewhere or are deployed, the above specifics are wrong. Don't tell me AF officers have never condoned sex jokes or rape songs in the work place. That is bullshit, it happens all the time. Maybe not in your current world, but it happens. I've seen plenty of it and I've taken plenty of formal UCMJ and informal action against it. The former TSgt Smith case alleging misconduct at Kunsan and Shaw is an example of our AF officers doing it at work. And it isn't just the flyers or fighter community. Sexual harassment and hostile work environments exist in ammo, maintenance, ATC, security forces, etc. Argue all day about the correlation of hostile work environments and sexual assault. It doesn't matter who is right, the hostile work environments need to go. Be on the right side of getting rid of these stupid traditions. It shouldn't matter, but I swear like a sailor, drink like a fish, gamble, enjoy violent entertainment and laugh at offensive humor, so ease off on the high horse or religious attacks. It isn't sexist thinking we care about, it is the sexually offensive and harassing actions taken in the workplace.

[HossHarris]

One nugget that came out of the Tsgt smith lawsuit (I read it, I have that sort of time), is "amazing horse" on YouTube.

Worth the bandwidth.

You're welcome.

[Beaver]

Liquid,

You want dudes to say "box," "head," etc despite their alternate definitions but you don't want dudes to have nicknames like Fingers or Crab due to their possible alternate definitions. Which is it? And what does Crab have to do with sex? Do you think Beaver is offensive? I think you and Jen Smith are trying so hard to be offended it would be impossible avoid.

And what rape song is everyone talking about? S&M Man? S&M isn't necessarily rape, you know.

[Fuzz]

I know a guy with a call sign you mentioned but it has nosexual conatation whatsoever.

[Liquid]

Liquid,

You want dudes to say "box," "head," etc despite their alternate definitions but you don't want dudes to have nicknames like Fingers or Crab due to their possible alternate definitions. Which is it? And what does Crab have to do with sex? Do you think Beaver is offensive? I think you and Jen Smith are trying so hard to be offended it would be impossible avoid.

And what rape song is everyone talking about? S&M Man? S&M isn't necessarily rape, you know.

I'm not easily offended, but my tolerance for inappropriate sexist behavior at work is very low. Words games based on sex jokes or traditions should go. So should saying sts after every double meaning, deliberately making a sexual reference where one did not exist. And yes, I think the call sign Beaver is stupid and inappropriate no matter how fond of mammals you are. Look up the rape songs on your own time. I know of at least ten. And to be clear, I don't give a shit what you anonymously post on the internet or do off duty. I'm talking about at work and in uniform.

[Beaver]

I'm not easily offended, but my tolerance for inappropriate sexist behavior at work is very low. Words games based on sex jokes or traditions should go. So should saying sts after every double meaning, deliberately making a sexual reference where one did not exist. And yes, I think the call sign Beaver is stupid and inappropriate no matter how fond of mammals you are. Look up the rape songs on your own time. I know of at least ten. And to be clear, I don't give a shit what you anonymously post on the internet or do off duty. I'm talking about at work and in uniform.

A) I actually haven't heard anyone say so to speak in quite a while. Nobody really cares anymore.

B ) Beaver is a lame callsign, but not inappropriate unless you really want to be offended.

3) This is my own time, and I'm asking the experts for enlightenment on rape songs. Please at least tell me the names of a few of your vast repertoire.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Beaver