More SARC briefings soon.

[RTB]

By what objective standard is that true? Who is drawing that line and by what authority?

Exactly.

[waveshaper]

If the Air Force is going to conduct these type exercises then they needs to be done right and everyone should play. Think along the lines of how we do UEI's, ORE's, ORI's, NSI's, etc. Also, we already have FPCON's, ALARM levels, and MOPP levels and we may need to develop some new social type warning/protection/prevention protocols for these new exercise/evaluation/inspection programs.

Examples; Sexual Assault Prevention Conditions (SAPCON's): Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Protection Conditions (LBGT-PCON's or FAB-PCON's could also be used): etc.

[HeloDude]

By what objective standard is that true? Who is drawing that line and by what authority?

The leadership is drawing the line...the same leadership that allowed us to have sexually offensive material a year ago before the standards changed. I'm upset that our leadership failed us up until recently, but now they've got it all figured out so I'm much happier!

[waveshaper]

Tony Carr just dedicated his latest blog entry to the Vance experiment. https://www.jqpublic-blog.com/?p=558

Back in the 1970's/80's when the Air Force/EOT were trying to squash racism I don't remember any similar type experiments/exercises. This latest experiment/exercise would have been close to the equivalent, back then, of having an officer (or anybody) drop a racial slur like the "N word" to gage the enlisted folks response/reaction. I think these type exercises are WAY out of line.

[drewpey]

What if I feel harassed when I've got an A1C Junkchecker breathing down my neck during my monthly random urinalysis?

[HeloDude]

What if I feel harassed when I've got an A1C Junkchecker breathing down my neck during my monthly random urinalysis?

I personally find it offensive...especially if he doesn't buy me a drink afterwards.

[Helo Kitty]

What the ?! I thought only nutcases like the Taliban, Shabaad and al Qaeda had issues with a babe in a bikini?!

[Steve Holt!]

What if I feel harassed when I've got an A1C Junkchecker breathing down my neck during my monthly random urinalysis?

The secret to get these guys to leave you alone is to never break eye contact.

And moan.

[Karl Hungus]

The leadership is drawing the line...the same leadership that allowed us to have sexually offensive material a year ago before the standards changed. I'm upset that our leadership failed us up until recently, but now they've got it all figured out so I'm much happier!

Folks should stop referring to them as "leadership". Very little of what they do actually involves "leading". They're management, no more no less.

[Liquid]

Glad to see Liquid back with his view. Maybe I could send him some pictures and he could tell me at what level I should be sexually offended at the workplace so that I may as a leader pass my USAF learned sensitivity and subjective morality scale onto the enlisted guys/gals that work for me. Then I could figure out when I am supposed to be upset when I work out at the gym an see girls in tights or read an af.mil news article where they show bodybuilders.

Liquid, I work with many senior leaders who at least in the bar will admit this is CYA Bullshit and is hurting the service more overall than it is helping but their hands are tied and must enforce it. You seem to have bought into it what we are doing and how we are executing is right which worries me.

I just saw a list of actions and punishments against senior leaders during this with hunt and I was blown away with how far we have taken it. Makes me wonder who would want to even be a CC in this environment. I bet I could act more like a warfighter at the local knitting club than I can in the USAF.

How does singing dirty songs, displaying Hooters calendars, listening to sexually explicit songs, using sexual innuendos or putting pictures of sexy women in your crew briefs (all at work) make you a better warfighter? Don't go after the red herring that is a photo on your desk of your wife in a bikini. Comment on how our tradition of glamorizing sex makes us better.

[TAMInated]

Comment on how a picture of my wife in a bikini is offensive.

[Liquid]

So, what about Runners world magazine?...

I don't think Runners world magazines are sexually offensive, unprofessional or inappropriate. I don't know why anyone would need to display their favorite magazines in the workplace. Put your recreational reading down and do what you are being paid to do. Read your magazines on your own time, not at work. With as much bitching about how you can't read the -1 or the SPINS because you have to get your bullshit AAD, I'm surprised how many people want open and visible access to their magazines. If you need them or want to read them during your break, just put them in the damn drawer. And keep your stupid ass mermaid handle mug at home. Some stews like to talk about sex with the pilots while they fly. Some female pilots say "sts" and 69. So what? That doesn't make it right. Ask your chief pilot or union rep if you can hang your Maxim calendar on the back of your seat without being hassled by "leadership" and let me know what he says. Maybe you can convince him that it makes you a better pilot.

[Liquid]

Comment on how a picture of my wife in a bikini is offensive.

Why should I or anyone else be subjected to a picture of your wife in a bikini? Why do you want other people to look at this picture? What message are you trying to send those you work with? You shouldn't wear a bikini to work, display calendars of models wearing bikinis or put up a picture of your wife in a bikini. It is clearly sexual in nature and not appropriate for the workplace.

However, the picture of the wife in the bikini is not that big of a deal. It is probably on the lowest end of the sexually offensive material scale. That is probably why the sq commander used a picture of a model in a bikini. It is not so offensive that it crosses the line of performing sexual harassment exercises by actually sexually harassing people. It is an example of a commander being creative and aggressive in the effort to prevent sexual harassment and assault. Nobody is arguing for paperwork or NJP for inappropriate material at work. Most are encouraging self policing, awareness and a better understanding of what is inappropriate at work. No clear line, but a clear objective: clean up the workplace by removing sexually offensive and inappropriate material. Like Tony Carr points out, putting the fake picture on a Lts desk in a predominately enlisted workplace was not smart.

[HeloDude]

How does singing dirty songs, displaying Hooters calendars, listening to sexually explicit songs, using sexual innuendos or putting pictures of sexy women in your crew briefs (all at work) make you a better warfighter? Don't go after the red herring that is a photo on your desk of your wife in a bikini. Comment on how our tradition of glamorizing sex makes us better.

You guys at the top were fine with it a year ago...if it so offensive, then why didn't you all get fired for condoning it for so long? If you were at least just to say "We're doing it because that is what our civilian bosses are telling us to do", then I will respect you for telling it like it is. But when you guys jump on board all of the sudden, preach the talking points and then try to appear like you always believed in the new policy...well, it's disingenuous. And you if are being disingenuous with this issue, I question what else you are doing that is disingenuous.

If you all are only a political yes man then please don't be upset when a bunch of yes men is what you get at the lower levels.

[TAMInated]

You guys at the top were fine with it a year ago...if it so offensive, then why didn't you all get fired for condoning it for so long?

What do you mean? Vegas pretty much got fired and everyone knows it was his fault. /sarcasm

[Liquid]

You guys at the top were fine with it a year ago...if it so offensive, then why didn't you all get fired for condoning it for so long? If you were at least just to say "We're doing it because that is what our civilian bosses are telling us to do", then I will respect you for telling it like it is. But when you guys jump on board all of the sudden, preach the talking points and then try to appear like you always believed in the new policy...well, it's disingenuous. And you if are being disingenuous with this issue, I question what else you are doing that is disingenuous.

If you all are only a political yes man then please don't be upset when a bunch of yes men is what you get at the lower levels.

I've always flown aircraft in squadrons with female crewmembers, so I never referred to pilot peers as "bros". I've never been in a squadron that blatantly used word games, sexual innuendo or songs about sex. I have given shit to my fighter pilot friends my entire career for those traditions. I did tolerate Maxim style pictures in combat zones, using the "bought it at the BX" test. I told inappropriate jokes when I was a crewdog. I probably use too much profanity and try to cut down on it at work. During my career, I saw plenty of what is now considered "inappropriate" material and didn't say anything. I didn't do that as a commander.

Gen Welsh told us it was time to change the culture in our Air Force that tolerated sexual harassment, hostile work environments and sexually offensive material in the work place. He explained that it was a part (not the only) of a strategy that will reduce sexual assault. I think he genuinely believes it. I agree with him. I also think we need to get serious about the other lines of operations like training, education, response, prosecution, and prevention. The culture change is not the most important, but it is time to change. Time to grow up and stop acting like frat boys at work. We changed the racist culture in our AF after WWII and we will change this culture. A few years from now, nobody will care that we don't get to have mermaid handle coffee mugs at work.

[TAMInated]

Why should I or anyone else be subjected to a picture of your wife in a bikini?

"Subjected"? My wife is hot, fuck you! No pictures to follow, wouldn't want to offend you.

Edited November 1, 2013 by TAMInated

[TreeA10]

Runners World - offensive. Got it. According to the strict interpretation of Sharia law, men might go on a rape fest (not sure if they sing rape songs while actually committing the act but I will look into that) if they view so much as an ankle or wrist or the form of an arm or leg. Not actually viewing said arm or leg but just the form, hence the all encompassing clothing. So, Liquid, what is acceptable? Give me a definition of what I can see or what can be shown. Now, you keep saying leave this stuff at home but my understanding is that military members are in the military 24/7 and therefore subject to the UCMJ even off base, off duty, etc. So which is it? Is this material acceptable or not? I think you are trying to go down a road of policing behavior that will stir up far more hate and discontent than problem solve.

Side story. Best line ever from a flight atttendant. I am riding the jumpseat of a 777 from Chicago to Dallas enjoying the conversation with a pair of Captains flying this thing when a flight attendant comes up and sits down in the other jumpseat. She is very, very attractive. Mediterranean features, great figure. She starts complaining about the status of her love life and the inability to find that special person. She says to the guy in the right seat, "Married?" Gets a yep. Looks to the guy in the left seat, "Married?" Another yep. Looks at me, "Married?" I say yes. After a heavy sigh, she says, "I'm just looking for man who likes to eat Italian...and if he's hungry, I can cook, too." Stunned silence was best description of the flight deck environment.

Oddly enough, the jet did not spin violently out of control, the cockpit did not burst into flames, the crew found DFW and actually landed on the correct runway with the gear down.

Going down the road towards Warrior Monk status is not going to make the military a better fighting force because not everybody wants to be a Warrior Monk. I'm not sure what world you live in but somehow you want our military members to completely disregard everything they see, hear, or read that is circulated in the public realm or at least be able to flip some type of internal switch so that this world they live in for a MAJORITY of their lives, vs the 8 hour work day, does not rear its deemed offensive head (Can I say head?). You can get the military you want but you are going to need a whole lot of crosses to crucify those that do not meet your criteria.

[Karl Hungus]

Why should I or anyone else be subjected to a picture of your wife in a bikini? Why do you want other people to look at this picture? What message are you trying to send those you work with? You shouldn't wear a bikini to work, display calendars of models wearing bikinis or put up a picture of your wife in a bikini. It is clearly sexual in nature and not appropriate for the workplace.

However, the picture of the wife in the bikini is not that big of a deal. It is probably on the lowest end of the sexually offensive material scale. That is probably why the sq commander used a picture of a model in a bikini. It is not so offensive that it crosses the line of performing sexual harassment exercises by actually sexually harassing people. It is an example of a commander being creative and aggressive in the effort to prevent sexual harassment and assault. Nobody is arguing for paperwork or NJP for inappropriate material at work. Most are encouraging self policing, awareness and a better understanding of what is inappropriate at work. No clear line, but a clear objective: clean up the workplace by removing sexually offensive and inappropriate material. Like Tony Carr points out, putting the fake picture on a Lts desk in a predominately enlisted workplace was not smart.

A buddy of mine has a picture on his desk of him and his college buddies on a deep sea fishing trip. They're cheering as they hold up a marlin they just caught. They're completely naked, aside from board shorts. You can clearly make out their naked chests. How dare he take pride in such a moment and present said image at work! The horror! You can even see his nipples! It's sexual! Porn even! We're all equal... can you imagine if a FEMALE posed in swimwear?!?! Some A1C of any gender could be (gasp!) offended! Won't SOMEONE think of the children?!?!

Ladies and gents, I give you AF Management.

Sure, you'll say "why does he need a picture of him in his free time at his workplace?" Ok, you're right. Which is exactly why you and your peers have made this organization, which demands so much more sacrifice and surrender of personal freedoms than our civilian counterparts, and involves a gargantuan amount of bullshit getting in the way of doing our duties, into just another job. Meanwhile, the shit that actually matters goes ignored.

Fine. We'll treat it as just another job, decide we don't like where said job is going, and take our services elsewhere.

At least you have the balls to come around here and plead your side, as ridiculous as it is. Seriously, thanks...that's more than most of your peers will do. Still waiting on that vector we were promised in January 2013...

[Liquid]

Lots of talk about what you wouldn't do to prevent the unacceptable and disgusting number of sexual assaults that occur every day in our Air Force. What would you do as a squadron commander, wing commander or CSAF? Hold offenders accountable? Like Wilkerson? Protect victims? Of which half don't want to report unrestricted because they think/know they won't be protected? Got it, you wouldn't ban bikini pics, videos about drinking horse urine or saying sts after someone says package. What would you tell 35 first term Airmen that just arrived at your base about your philosophy on sexual harassment and sexual assault?

"Subjected"? My wife is hot, ###### you! No pictures to follow, wouldn't want to offend you.

Like I've said, I'm not easily offended. I still don't want to see the pic. At work or in a bar. Keep it in your damn wallet or your phone like normal people do.

[ThreeHoler]

You guys at the top were fine with it a year ago...if it so offensive, then why didn't you all get fired for condoning it for so long? If you were at least just to say "We're doing it because that is what our civilian bosses are telling us to do", then I will respect you for telling it like it is. But when you guys jump on board all of the sudden, preach the talking points and then try to appear like you always believed in the new policy...well, it's disingenuous. And you if are being disingenuous with this issue, I question what else you are doing that is disingenuous.

If you all are only a political yes man then please don't be upset when a bunch of yes men is what you get at the lower levels.

The problem with your argument is you want leadership yet you rail against it. Undermining your boss does not make you one of the "bros." Didn't we just have a thread where everyone cried foul about the OGV dude who said "It's the boss's policy" instead of "I don't like hats."

Make up your damn mind...

Yes, there are shittastic leaders in the AF. There are also great ones. I have no personal knowledge of Liquid, so I cannot quantify him as either...but you just crucified him for what you (the collective) cried about in the "What's wrong with AF [sic]" thread.

I'll raise Liquid one: it's time for the sorry-ass FGOs and "senior" CGOs to stand the fuck up, stop whining, and fix shit. AKA "Lead, Follow, Or Get The Fuck Out Of The Way."

[Liquid]

A buddy of mine has a picture on his desk of him and his college buddies on a deep sea fishing trip. They're cheering as they hold up a marlin they just caught. They're completely naked, aside from board shorts. You can clearly make out their naked chests. How dare he take pride in such a moment and present said image at work! The horror! You can even see his nipples! It's sexual! Porn even! We're all equal... can you imagine if a FEMALE posed in swimwear?!?! Some A1C of any gender could be (gasp!) offended! Won't SOMEONE think of the children?!?!

Ladies and gents, I give you AF Management.

Sure, you'll say "why does he need a picture of him in his free time at his workplace?" Ok, you're right. Which is exactly why you and your peers have made this organization, which demands so much more sacrifice and surrender of personal freedoms than our civilian counterparts, and involves a gargantuan amount of bullshit getting in the way of doing our duties, into just another job. Meanwhile, the shit that actually matters goes ignored.

Fine. We'll treat it as just another job, decide we don't like where said job is going, and take our services elsewhere.

At least you have the balls to come around here and plead your side, as ridiculous as it is. Seriously, thanks...that's more than most of your peers will do. Still waiting on that vector we were promised in January 2013...

Seriously, why do you guys obsess about this shit? You would think warfighters would say "noted" and move on to more important things. It isn't rocket science and it isn't hard to comply. Keep the sex talk/pics/songs off duty and focus on warfighting while you are in uniform, deployed and at work.

[TAMInated]

Seriously, why do you guys obsess about this shit? You would think warfighters would say "noted" and move on to more important things.

Why don't you? Edited November 1, 2013 by TAMInated

[Day Man]

Has the denial of sexually-themed material been proven to decrease sexual-assaults? Based on Catholic priests and bible-belt teen moms, I would argue the opposite...

Edit:

focus on warfighting while you are in uniform, deployed and at work.

I don't think anyone disagrees with you here.

Edited November 1, 2013 by day man

[Azimuth]

Lots of talk about what you wouldn't do to prevent the unacceptable and disgusting number of sexual assaults that occur every day in our Air Force. What would you do as a squadron commander, wing commander or CSAF? Hold offenders accountable? Like Wilkerson? Protect victims? Of which half don't want to report unrestricted because they think/know they won't be protected? Got it, you wouldn't ban bikini pics, videos about drinking horse urine or saying sts after someone says package. What would you tell 35 first term Airmen that just arrived at your base about your philosophy on sexual harassment and sexual assault?

Like I've said, I'm not easily offended. I still don't want to see the pic. At work or in a bar. Keep it in your damn wallet or your phone like normal people do.

That's called knowing your audience. You aren't going to talk to a bunch of A1C in FTAC about certain topics the way you'd talk to a bunch of FGO/SNCO's. Just like you probably interact different with your peers bullshitting differently than having a CC Call with your subordinates about the same topics.

Don't really know how Wilkerson applies since his guilt verdict was overturn within the constructs of military law.

I personally don't like people bringing their fucking kids to work. I don't want your kid(s) running through my office, in my debrief room (while debriefing), etc. But how popular would I be, the married no-kids guy, going up to the Sq/CC saying I don't like kids at work and I feel pressured to allow them to be in my office due to peer pressure. Do I go and file an IG complaint? Where does this crazy shit stop?