More SARC briefings soon.

[HeloDude]

USAF conducts first SAPR orchestrated mock Court-Martial trial. Again I would expect to see more of this type training/exercises/experiments.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2013/11/05/sex-assault-trial-gives-airmen-perspective.html?comp=1199436026997&rank=1

This is totally not a waste of time. I'm looking forward to the mock trials of someone for drinking and driving, molesting a child, robbing a bank, giving classified information to a foreign national, cheating on your spouse...I'm sure I'm missing some other ones.

Just think--if they build this into basic training and all the commissioning programs then we won't have any more problems ever again. Whoever came up with this idea is a genius...definitely deserves an award and should be promoted ASAP.

[Bobby]

USAF conducts first SAPR orchestrated mock Court-Martial trial. Again I would expect to see more of this type training/exercises/experiments.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2013/11/05/sex-assault-trial-gives-airmen-perspective.html?comp=1199436026997&rank=1

I personally don't have a problem with this. If you read the article they are actually targeting the demographic (first-term Airmen) where the highest likelihood of this behavior is taking place.

[BitteEinBit]

Come on, you know. "Look at us, we're all inclusive now."

You can get as mad about it as you want, won't change a damn thing.

I know dude, I won't win this one. I'm not mad about it, I just ask the question because I know there is no reasonable answer that can be given without DoD speaking out of two sides of its mouth. I think it will be an epic failure, we'll stereotype the GLBT community and someone (group) will get offended...and DoD will act like they never saw it coming. Hell, I think I'm one of the only ones not stereotyping the GLBT community because I don't think there is anything different about them from anyone else, other than what I'm not supposed to talk about.

Ok, I'll stop...

[Homestar]

All the talk about what's appropriate for the "workplace" highlight, for me, the true trajectory of the Air Force specifically and perhaps the military in general: today's military man is just working in another corporate job. It seems to me that the most resistance to the elimination of heritage, nose art, dirty song traditions, etc come from those who are most involved with the business of killing (the modern fighter pilot, and sarcasm that RPA guy with 1,000 kills /sarcasm). Most Air Force functions can be contracted to civilians, but the actual killing has to stay in house. These communities are understandably upset that they're being forced into a corporate business mold of behavior.

I personally didn't want anything to do with the fighter traditions, so I joined a different community. Also I sucked flying the Tweet. I also agree with Liquid in that sexual assault and harassment have no place in the military where we uphold a more stringent code of honor than the rest of the country. But the Air Force is clearly moving toward a more blended type of corporate identity, one that sets aside a month out of the year to honor the homosexual lifestyle, so don't be surprised when the notion of giving your life for your "wingman" goes away.

[Bergman]

Almost all of the other offenses are expected to be handled by the immediate commander. Superior commanders cannot exert undue command influence on their subordinate commanders. If they disagree with how a subordinate commander is handling an issue, they can lift the authority to discipline to their level, but they cannot tell the subordinate commander what to do.

They can't tell them what to do, but they can and certainly do pull the "If you want your choice of next assignment, you'll do what I say" card.

The AF is going to 360 degree evaluations for commanders and senior leaders. We just finished the first round of GO assessments, which were Likert scale answers to questions about integrity, abuse of authority, wasting resources, judgement, etc. There were also open answer blocks where you could write any specific feedback and stratify the GO's performance. All GOs were assessed by their peers, subordinate and superior GOs. The chief's plan is to push these surveys down to the 0-6 and squadron commander level, to use these subordinate and peer surveys to evaluate how well the commander leads. This will be a good thing.

Agreed that it is a good thing. I would pay good money to read some of them, because Lord knows there are quite a number of senior leaders who need to be (rightfully) slaughtered on these things.

Are you finished? Well allow me to retort...

Just have the courage to do the right thing, regardless of the consequences. If the right thing is stopping stupid shit from happening, then stop the stupid shit. I can't wait for this mystical airman or chief who tells me what color gym bag I can carry says something to me. You will need to convince people that it was the right thing to do. Defending porn in the vault or on the network, sexual innuendos at work and sexual assault as the right thing will be very difficult. Gym bags, colorful shoes or socks won't.

What we need is an officer corps willing and able to lead our Air Force into combat and at home, with the resources, policies, talent and missions we are given, not just the ones we want. We need officers who can motivate, build camaraderie, and lead people to do things they may not be all that willing to do. We need our pilot and crewmember officers to lead the Air Force, not complain about shoe clerks, socks and songs. We are at war for f*ck's sake.

This is great college graduation or SOS guest speaker material, but just doesn't cut it in today's climate. I wish it were different, and indeed I can remember the days when you could speak out respectfully and it would be welcomed by squadron (and above) leadership.

The sad truth is that these days, if you disagree with leadership, "regardless of the consequences" takes on a whole new meaning. In the last 5 years I have heard several instances of CGOs literally being threatened with 365 deployments, UAV assignments, getting non-join spouse assignments, and unfavorable rankings during the "RIF". I'm talking "You didn't agree with me over the TDY crew schedule, so I had your assignment cancelled" type things.

There is a difference between possibly slowing your career/upgades/office movement down over "fighting the good fight" and "I don't get to see my family for a year because I spoke up." It doesn't take too many instances of that sort of heavy-handed "leadership" to shut everyone up.

The worst offenders for this sort of behavior, in my experience over the last 2-3 years, have all made O-6 or O-7. As the saying goes, "Rule #3: There is no justice".

FWIW, I'm not trying to grind an axe here. I'm just a former AD, now long time ANG guy who deploys quite a bit and watches in shocked amazement when I hear these stories from my AD buddies. I'm hopeful that the doses of current reality you are getting on BODN are helpful in fighting the good fight at the puzzle palace. We really need it.

[Day Man]

Helms says "F this, I'm out!"

[Warrior]

I'm on board with civilian control of the military, but this witch hunt over sexual assault because someone in congress is unhappy with the ucmj process is ridiculous.

[Fud]

You know, I read this entire forum for a few months and never commented. The reason I never commented is because I have become accustomed to people like liquid spewing this garbage. If you are who you claim to be, I'll show you the proper respects and say..."Sir, thank you. Thank you for letting me know what is in our future as a force." My ADSC expires in a few months and I can walk on if I choose. Everyone else bitches and moans and "tries to fix things" but it will never happen. Read the last few chapters of Gen Old's bio and you'll see what our AF culture has become. We are more worried about passing inspections than kicking ass, taking names, and drinking an adult beverage while looking at strippers, or taking those shots out of their belly buttons. I'm not being sarcastic by saying "thank you" because this is the way our service, and all others, are headed.

Edit to say: Sir, seriously, thank you for coming onto this forum. Again, if you are who you say you are, this is truly the last bastion of truth you will see in the USAF. I'd say the same thing to you in person no matter what your wore on your collar or shoulders, but that is why I don't have a future here. Not saying I'd talk shit, but it seems our "senior leadership" can't take an honest answer in person. I've tried, it bit me in the ass, and I've moved on. I just hope this website doesn't become official in some way, otherwise it will suck. This website got aided me in getting a pilot slot, helped me kick ass in my current job, and made me appreciate true men I respect like M2, Toro, and many others. God bless you all, and goodnight.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Fud

[Day Man]

Maybe sit the next one out, Fud...

Edited November 9, 2013 by day man

[Spoo]

Nicely done DM.

[FallingOsh]

All the talk about what's appropriate for the "workplace" highlight, for me, the true trajectory of the Air Force specifically and perhaps the military in general: today's military man is just working in another corporate job. It seems to me that the most resistance to the elimination of heritage, nose art, dirty song traditions, etc come from those who are most involved with the business of killing (the modern fighter pilot, and sarcasm that RPA guy with 1,000 kills /sarcasm). Most Air Force functions can be contracted to civilians, but the actual killing has to stay in house. These communities are understandably upset that they're being forced into a corporate business mold of behavior.

This.

The reality is that these professions take a certain type of personality. I'm sure we all have friends from past generations and from foreign militaries that we've met over the years. There's a reason a Vietnam vet can sit and bullshit with a vet from Desert Storm, who can sing songs with an OEF vet, who can booze with an RAF pilot, who can chase skirts with a Eurofighter pilot. We're all cut from the same cloth. It takes a certain kind of personality to do any type of job and ours is no exception. The problem is that our profession attracts a certain personality type while our leadership demands another. Yeah, got it. Porn, dirty songs, booze, etc do not have their place in the professional environment. Got it. They're gone. But you will never cut the wild-hair-on-your-ass attitude out from the type of person who is attracted to our profession.

I'm not making excuses or tooting my horn as a fighter pilot. The same applies to the dudes in Ranger Battalion or the Marine sniper or the Navy SEAL or the C-130 pilot landing on a short dirt strip. Our jobs must have a person, male or female, who is willing to work for minimum wage, spend many months per year away from home, and take the lives of other human beings. If you can find some liberal punk from UC Berkley who's in touch with his feelings to do these jobs then please, hire him. But reality says you cannot have both. You cannot have a dedicated professional killer and a soft-skinned politically correct poet in the same person. If you want the PC type in our military then go find some to replace us. I dare you. If you want professionals to continue to carry out the mission, then get the fuck off our backs.

Edited November 14, 2013 by FallingOsh

[10percenttruth]

This.

The reality is that these professions take a certain type of personality. I'm sure we all have friends from past generations and from foreign militaries that we've met over the years. There's a reason a Vietnam vet can sit and bullshit with a vet from Desert Storm, who can sing songs with an OEF vet, who can booze with an RAF pilot, who can chase skirts with a Eurofighter pilot. We're all cut from the same cloth. It takes a certain kind of personality to do any type of job and ours is no exception. The problem is that our profession attracts a certain personality type while our leadership demands another. Yeah, got it. Porn, dirty songs, booze, etc do not have their place in the professional environment. Got it. Their gone. But you will never cut the wild-hair-on-your-ass attitude out from the type of person who is attracted to our profession.

I'm not making excuses or tooting my horn as a fighter pilot. The same applies to the dudes in Ranger Battalion or the Marine sniper or the Navy SEAL or the C-130 pilot landing on a short dirt strip. Our jobs must have a person, male or female, who is willing to work for minimum wage, spend many months per year away from home, and take the lives of other human beings. If you can find some liberal punk from UC Berkley who's in touch with his feelings to do these jobs then please, hire him. But reality says you cannot have both. You cannot have a dedicated professional killer and a soft-skinned politically correct poet in the same person. If you want the PC type in our military then go find some to replace us. I dare you. If you want professionals to continue to carry out the mission, then get the ###### off our backs.

^ holy shit, this!

[Warrior]

^ holy shit, this!

2.

However, we're not all stone cold killers. Remember the "everyone's a warrior" phase? It doesn't work to have different standards for different communities, and id love for us to all be killers. But we're not.

I fly herks. If I ever have to shoot someone it'll be with my M9 and we're having a really terrible day. I'm picking up what you're putting down-landing at Salerno on nvgs is my idea of a party. But how can we possibly relate the combat mission to support agencies? I went to finance yesterday and got there too late. Their hours are no shit 830-1500. I can't remember the last time I left work at 1630 unless I had an 0430 show the next day...

The "closed for training/pt/going away lunch/CC call/softball tournament" mentality does not equate to the A-10 CAS/fighter pilot let's kill migs mindset.

[hindsight2020]

2.

However, we're not all stone cold killers. Remember the "everyone's a warrior" phase? It doesn't work to have different standards for different communities, and id love for us to all be killers. But we're not.

I fly herks. If I ever have to shoot someone it'll be with my M9 and we're having a really terrible day. I'm picking up what you're putting down-landing at Salerno on nvgs is my idea of a party. But how can we possibly relate the combat mission to support agencies? I went to finance yesterday and got there too late. Their hours are no shit 830-1500. I can't remember the last time I left work at 1630 unless I had an 0430 show the next day...

The "closed for training/pt/going away lunch/CC call/softball tournament" mentality does not equate to the A-10 CAS/fighter pilot let's kill migs mindset.

That architectural identity crisis has always been a defining part of the Air Force. The problem is as you suggest, the peacetime leadership's misguided attempt at providing the shoe a sense of belonging by chastising the trigger puller. In a true peer fight the shoe gets told to stfu. But this decade isn't gonna be it. As such it's the decade for corporate managers with an underlying testosterone deficiency to rule for a while. Remember the rule of life: it's all timing and luck in this life. There is no justice. Ill keep flying until they sideline me or fire me. Then ill go so something else. Fuck em.

[brabus]

AFN here wants to follow a pilot around for a week and make a documentary on "how the pilots contribute to the mission." Are you fucking kidding me, what we do IS the mission! Everything else (much of it very important) is supporting the end game, which is pilots killing bad guys and breaking their shit. On the plus side, I can't wait for this guy to work a 70 hr week and see how life is far from "fly for an hour and then fuck off the rest of the day."

[Liquid]

That architectural identity crisis has always been a defining part of the Air Force. The problem is as you suggest, the peacetime leadership's misguided attempt at providing the shoe a sense of belonging by chastising the trigger puller. In a true peer fight the shoe gets told to stfu. But this decade isn't gonna be it. As such it's the decade for corporate managers with an underlying testosterone deficiency to rule for a while. Remember the rule of life: it's all timing and luck in this life. There is no justice. Ill keep flying until they sideline me or fire me. Then ill go so something else. ###### em.

This is garbage. How are we chastising your so called "trigger pullers"? By cracking down on the stupid sex jokes and traditions? Misguided attempts to give the shoes a sense of belonging? How do you think you would get paid, get fuel, get parts, get weather, have the lights work in your building or any of the other thousand supoprt functions that we need to fly combat aircraft if there were no "shoes"? In a true peer fight you won't need "shoes", or they will appreciate you more? Do you really think the Army or corporate America would do a better job supporting you? Do you actually think you are capable of leading our force or a joint force into combat? Testosterone deficiency? #### off. If you actually spout this shit to our Airmen or young CGOs, I'll be glad to be a part of the process that sidelined you. I guess you have never had a boss you would rip your head off for saying juvenile crap like this. Corporate managers? We have more combat experience in our Air Force now, through all levels of leadership, than we have ever had. Not in peer air combat, but in killing the right people, protecting the right people and doing everything our nation has asked of the Air Force for over 12 years. How is there no justice? What injustices have the shoes imparted on you? Maybe this is troll bullshit, or maybe you actually believe this and spread it around. Never mind, just go do something else.

They can't tell them what to do, but they can and certainly do pull the "If you want your choice of next assignment, you'll do what I say" card. Agreed that it is a good thing. I would pay good money to read some of them, because Lord knows there are quite a number of senior leaders who need to be (rightfully) slaughtered on these things. This is great college graduation or SOS guest speaker material, but just doesn't cut it in today's climate. I wish it were different, and indeed I can remember the days when you could speak out respectfully and it would be welcomed by squadron (and above) leadership.The sad truth is that these days, if you disagree with leadership, "regardless of the consequences" takes on a whole new meaning. In the last 5 years I have heard several instances of CGOs literally being threatened with 365 deployments, UAV assignments, getting non-join spouse assignments, and unfavorable rankings during the "RIF". I'm talking "You didn't agree with me over the TDY crew schedule, so I had your assignment cancelled" type things.There is a difference between possibly slowing your career/upgades/office movement down over "fighting the good fight" and "I don't get to see my family for a year because I spoke up." It doesn't take too many instances of that sort of heavy-handed "leadership" to shut everyone up.The worst offenders for this sort of behavior, in my experience over the last 2-3 years, have all made O-6 or O-7. As the saying goes, "Rule #3: There is no justice".FWIW, I'm not trying to grind an axe here. I'm just a former AD, now long time ANG guy who deploys quite a bit and watches in shocked amazement when I hear these stories from my AD buddies. I'm hopeful that the doses of current reality you are getting on BODN are helpful in fighting the good fight at the puzzle palace. We really need it.

Yeah, that courage thing is hard. You do know that if a commander or supervisor threatened you with a 365 or cancelled assignment for not doing something stupid you could go to the IG and have his/her ass fired in about a week. And you would keep this from happening to other people. And you've just sat on the sidelines and watched these heavy handed leaders make rank? So much tough talk from members on this forum, and so little action to do the right thing. If anyone threatened to cancel my assignment over a crew schedule disagreement, I would have their ass or have a different job. This is a dose of reality that makes me nauseous.

[Tank]

Yeah, that courage thing is hard. You do know that if a commander or supervisor threatened you with a 365 or cancelled assignment for not doing something stupid you could go to the IG and have his/her ass fired in about a week. And you would keep this from happening to other people. And you've just sat on the sidelines and watched these heavy handed leaders make rank? So much tough talk from members on this forum, and so little action to do the right thing. If anyone threatened to cancel my assignment over a crew schedule disagreement, I would have their ass or have a different job. This is a dose of reality that makes me nauseous.

Easily said on a no name internet forum....

[Liquid]

This.

The reality is that these professions take a certain type of personality. I'm sure we all have friends from past generations and from foreign militaries that we've met over the years. There's a reason a Vietnam vet can sit and bullshit with a vet from Desert Storm, who can sing songs with an OEF vet, who can booze with an RAF pilot, who can chase skirts with a Eurofighter pilot. We're all cut from the same cloth. It takes a certain kind of personality to do any type of job and ours is no exception. The problem is that our profession attracts a certain personality type while our leadership demands another. Yeah, got it. Porn, dirty songs, booze, etc do not have their place in the professional environment. Got it. Their gone. But you will never cut the wild-hair-on-your-ass attitude out from the type of person who is attracted to our profession.

I'm not making excuses or tooting my horn as a fighter pilot. The same applies to the dudes in Ranger Battalion or the Marine sniper or the Navy SEAL or the C-130 pilot landing on a short dirt strip. Our jobs must have a person, male or female, who is willing to work for minimum wage, spend many months per year away from home, and take the lives of other human beings. If you can find some liberal punk from UC Berkley who's in touch with his feelings to do these jobs then please, hire him. But reality says you cannot have both. You cannot have a dedicated professional killer and a soft-skinned politically correct poet in the same person. If you want the PC type in our military then go find some to replace us. I dare you. If you want professionals to continue to carry out the mission, then get the ###### off our backs.

False choice. It isn't dedicated professional killer or soft-skinned politically correct poet. It is dedicated professional killer or more dedicated professional killer. Nobody is suggesting we don't hire the men and women that have wild hair on fire, aggressive, creative and fearless traits. Our leadership does demand this. You should too. We also expect you to know how to treat all Airmen with dignity and respect. There is nothing brave, professional or honorable about degrading anyone, from 1CO, to "shoes", to women in combat, to homosexuals, to muslims. I'm sure the soldiers who pissed on the dead Taliban fighters thought they were bonding like only true warriors do, but they were not and they are not who we need fighting our wars. We can kill just as many people, just as quickly and precisely, without the stupid ass frat boy traditions, sexual innuendos and porn. We made a terrible mistake growing and encouraging a generation of officers who thought this was ok and that it made them better warfighters. It doesn't and it won't matter in a few years when we forget this minor behavior course correction.

Easily said on a no name internet forum....

What is your point?

[Fuzz]

I take it you've never dealt with finance, I would love to have a paycheck where I wasn't overpaid or grossly underpaid (and by I, I mean many other people in my squadron too). I would love to tell my wife what I can expect my paycheck to be not feel like I'm playing the lottery everytime I look at my LES. Then when you say I'm leaving for two weeks on a mission, I need to figure out how I'm going to get the $1000 you owe me, they look at you weird and say you'll just have to wait. I ask if they can call and get this fixed (because I've had it done in the past), "no sorry we aren't going to do that". So now I get to call my wife and tell her my paycheck will be short this month, as I step to the jet.

Here's another one, need gas mask for deployment. Get told I HAVE to make an appointment and not be late, because LRS doesn't like it. Well the gas maks fitting runs late, take the info to LRS, show up a couple minutes late get told by the airman I'm late, as he and his buddy are sitting there on their computer on Facebook.

This list could go on and on, sock checks by the SSgt at the chow hall ect.

[Liquid]

I take it you've never dealt with finance, I would love to have a paycheck where I wasn't overpaid or grossly underpaid (and by I, I mean many other people in my squadron too). I would love to tell my wife what I can expect my paycheck to be not feel like I'm playing the lottery everytime I look at my LES. Then when you say I'm leaving for two weeks on a mission, I need to figure out how I'm going to get the $1000 you owe me, they look at you weird and say you'll just have to wait. I ask if they can call and get this fixed (because I've had it done in the past), "no sorry we aren't going to do that". So now I get to call my wife and tell her my paycheck will be short this month, as I step to the jet.

Here's another one, need gas mask for deployment. Get told I HAVE to make an appointment and not be late, because LRS doesn't like it. Well the gas maks fitting runs late, take the info to LRS, show up a couple minutes late get told by the airman I'm late, as he and his buddy are sitting there on their computer on Facebook.

This list could go on and on, sock checks by the SSgt at the chow hall ect.

Have you ever talked to the CPTS/CC? Or the LRS/CC? Did you mentor the Airmen or the SSgt?

[Tank]

What is your point?

My point is that you are spouting off a lot of "holier than though" rhetoric about how things ought to be accomplished but until these actions actually happen and are not just spouted off on an internet forum, then it is just that, a bunch of words.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Tank

[Liquid]

Illegitimate? No really, how does it degrade them? This report obviously bothers you, why?

[Fuzz]

Have you ever talked to the CPTS/CC? Or the LRS/CC? Did you mentor the Airmen or the SSgt?

No tried that once got a call from their CC, spent an hour explaining to the FLT/CC how their airman was knowingly giving me bad info because they didn't want to go look it up, it took me 30 plus minutes to convince them that their airman was actually wrong, and that I did have the ability to tell them they weren't doing their job. I was surprised at that phone call; it was the fast thing finance had ever done for me, plus good luck finding said leadership between their hours and then that's if they are even there when they are open. You can't "mentor" or hell just tell them they aren't doing their job if they aren't in your chain of command. Everyone's a 5 and single-handedly winning the war, or it's all about kingdoms, you can't tell someone that their people aren't doing their job.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Fuzz

[Liquid]

My point is that you are spouting off a lot of "holier than though" rhetoric about how things ought to be accomplished but until these actions actually happen and are not just spouted off on an internet forum, then it is just that, a bunch of words.

Ok. I guess I am making the same point. Quit bitching and whining (bunch of words) on a forum and actually do something to fix the things you can fix. Mentor your crew or your flight. Provide feedback to your commanders and the support squadron commanders. Lead the Airmen you are charged to lead. Teach them to focus on mission accomplishment. Like I said, a lot of tough talk on this forum, but not a lot of talk about actions. I was directly addressing, with my holier than thou rhetoric, a specific example of seeing something wrong and doing nothing about it. I know plenty of commanders, chiefs and shirts who dedicate their lives to making the AF better, taking care of the men and women they are responsible for, and accomplishing incredibly difficult missions. I don't see the same AF so many here complain about. Maybe because I act more than I talk. Maybe because I am out of touch. I do learn a lot here.

[Fuzz]

Sure you can. Be aggressive and creative. When you are right, you are right.

I'm gone more than I'm home, between my undermanned office and my days TDY I don't have time to be "creative or aggressive" and I shouldn't fucking have too. I should be able to tell someone to their face that they aren't doing their job (they do work in the MISSION SUPPORT group after all) and not get crap from their supervisor, I expect the supervisor to help fix the situation.

I'm also not one to shit on everyone that's not ops, I have had some phenomenal experiences with airman at various support functions, and do my best to highlight them up their chain. Unfortunately, going the opposite way doesn't work so well.