Taxes, the Deficit/Debt, and the Fiscal Cliff

[Grabby]

This is the other reason political views like this will never be winners...a persistent belief that the country will fail or is about to fail and that we should all be fearful for our inevitable downfall. Not a great message to sell to an American people who want...you guessed it...hope. The Right used to be able to provide that hope, haven't seen it lately. Rubio was going for a hopeful message in his SOTU response, not one like what you're saying above, I actually applaud that.

Unfortunately this mentality is exactly what will lead to our failure. Running campaigns on "hope" doesn't address the actual problems plaguing our nation. Not believing that failure is possible is great in movies, but short-sighted and ultimately disastrous for great nations. Think about it, every single great nation has fallen. History teaches us this is inevitable.

I think Lloyd, like most on this board, are trying to make sure we take steps to ensure we remain great for another ~300 years, rather than talk about holding out hope yet enacting laws which are all short-sighted in an effort to continue successful reelection percentages.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Grabby

[RASH]

Got it--politics at all costs over principles and a realistic view of what is happening to the country. You are correct, the Dems have this one down.

And they will continue to win the elections by providing "hope" (and handouts) until our economy fails. Nsplayr--then what?

ETA: Grabby beat me to it by about 5 seconds, and stated it much more eloquently than a crusty old retired herk driver...

Edited February 19, 2013 by RASH

[HU&W]

Hope and security are two very different things that are frequently substituted for each other. Democrats say the word hope, but they communicate a message of security. Security is not a bad thing, but if you don't make your own security it can be easily taken away. Hope is something entirely different. It is the light at the end of the tunnel you strive for when knowingly making a sacrifice to achieve a goal. It's the expectation that you'll actually achieve a promised reward for a given act. Certainly, it's a delicate balance.

Big 2 on the every great nation comment. The most interesting thing in studying the downfall of all these great nations is that they almost always follow a similar pattern. They become extremely prosperous and powerful. They innovate. They become very socially benevolent. The welfare constituency grows. They vote (formally or informally) for socialist, communist, and fascist policies and the associated politicians. Morals degrade. The elite become their own class with everybody else equalized. Politicians begin focusing more on partisan posturing than policies. Everybody living in the nation honestly believes they are the greatest nation ever and therefore could never end. Some sort of violent collapse happens. The nation continues to exist afterwards as a shadow of its former glory or fractures.

I certainly hope that's not the case with us, but so far it seems like we're playing this by the handbook.

[magnetfreezer]

This is the other reason political views like this will never be winners...a persistent belief that the country will fail or is about to fail and that we should all be fearful for our inevitable downfall. Not a great message to sell to an American people who want...you guessed it...hope. The Right used to be able to provide that hope, haven't seen it lately. Rubio was going for a hopeful message in his SOTU response, not one like what you're saying above, I actually applaud that.

How would you explain Greece and the multiple other European countries that have or are starting to fail fiscally?

[nsplayr]

Got it--politics at all costs over principles and a realistic view of what is happening to the country. You are correct, the Dems have this one down.

Reagan campaigned on hope and "morning in America" and Carter was linked to an "economic malaise." You can espouse conservative principles and still be hopeful. The sky is falling politics will never win, therefore depriving those who talk that way from the chance at actually governing and trying to put their ideas into practice.

America has some structural problems that need to be addressed, however it also has many, many structural strengths that should not be overlooked. Either way, like I said, it matters what you say and if someone wants to be a national leader or a national party in power, they need to put forward a hopeful message if they want to be given the chance to actually lead.

[lloyd christmas]

Okay, so you're morally, fiscally, and intellectually superior. Congrats, you can feel good about yourself. What I'm trying to get across is that 10 years ago you can say to that person "fuck you don't need your vote". You can't do that now, because other than the angry white person vote, your platform is alienating everyone else. In other words, your voter base is eroding and it's only going to get worse. It's clear you would rather remain ideologically pure and have a ragtag assortment of influence over a bunch of flyover states.

Conservatives are like a guy in a shitty job who thinks that he's smarter than everyone else, but is content to just sit there and bitch, rather than change anything in their life because "why even bother". Truly a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Holy shit that is hilarious.

[Grabby]

Okay, so you're morally, fiscally, and intellectually superior. Congrats, you can feel good about yourself. What I'm trying to get across is that 10 years ago you can say to that person "###### you don't need your vote". You can't do that now, because other than the angry white person vote, your platform is alienating everyone else. In other words, your voter base is eroding and it's only going to get worse. It's clear you would rather remain ideologically pure and have a ragtag assortment of influence over a bunch of flyover states.

Conservatives are like a guy in a shitty job who thinks that he's smarter than everyone else, but is content to just sit there and bitch, rather than change anything in their life because "why even bother". Truly a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I totally agree with your first paragraph, as long as you change the context of the bolded line. I just understand the consequences of adjusting a government to both appeal to, and go into extreme debt for, the wants of those who do not contribute in any way themselves.

As far as your second paragraph...you're a ######.

ETA - ###### = F.A.G.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Grabby

[HeloDude]

Seriously, for as much doom and gloom as everyone on this thread is predicting, I sure don't see a whole lot of people taking steps to protect themselves from the complete anarchy and breakdown society that's so totally gonna happen soon.

I can see that you don't visit the gun forum much. Then again I'm not surprised as pussies are typically afraid of guns.

[Guest one]

Yeah, you are such a badass for talking about guns on an internet forum.

[TreeA10]

On a side note, I notice that many people here share three traits. Ideological purity, belief in both moral and intellectually superiority, and broad, sweeping statements that sound an awful lot like dramatic hyperbole.

Yeah, I see your point. The military would be so much better if we had a cadre of warriors who were open to any trendy ideology, a sliding scale of relative morality, and lack of confidence in their education or decision making skills. Oh, and add in some sparkly TIB puffy shirts.

[R-Dub]

Yeah, you are such a badass for talking about mindless drivel on an anonymous Internet forum.

Seriously, dude, can you promise that you'll stop posting on here when you finally do get kicked out of the military?

[kabagram]

Of ######ing course revenues are based on GDP, what economics class did you fail out of?

I guess you can sit there and think about an internet forum you posted on 20 years ago, and say "I told you so" as a motorcycle death squad in the dystopian future rapes and murders everyone in your refugee camp. Congrats.

Seriously, for as much doom and gloom as everyone on this thread is predicting, I sure don't see a whole lot of people taking steps to protect themselves from the complete anarchy and breakdown society that's so totally gonna happen soon. I guess you can tell your family about how you were right all along! You know, as you're all getting raped and murdered.

On a side note, I notice that many people here share three traits. Ideological purity, belief in both moral and intellectually superiority, and broad, sweeping statements that sound an awful lot like dramatic hyperbole. Maybe this message board is a compilation of the most brilliant economic and political minds ever EVER that can predict the future. And they all just happen to be military aircrew, not even experts in the field! Or it could be an unchecked echo chamber of pure narcissism.

Nah, probably the brilliant minds thing.

I typically don't post much here, but I thought it worth pointing out that all of your posts follow a distinct pattern..

It's always a snide rebuttle followed by sarcastic praise and ridicule of forum members in general. Always. It's interesting that you fail to see obvious hypocrisy in attempting elevate yourself above the "narcissists" on the forum using insults, in declaring your own intellectual superiority by way of mocking the forum in general, and using broad statements and exaggerations to rail against... ahem, "sweeping generalizations and hyperbole".

You should really lighten up and come to realize you are exactly all the things you're pretending to denigrate. Happy trolling.

[Guest one]

Seriously, dude, can you promise that you'll stop posting on here when you finally do get kicked out of the military?

Thanks for rooting for me asshole.

ETA: If I got kicked out of the military it would just give me more time to post my mindless drivel.

Edited February 19, 2013 by one

[HeloDude]

Yeah, you are such a badass for talking about guns on an internet forum.

I appreciate you noticing my badass'ness! If you read what I wrote, my reply was 100% in context. But don't you worry, I talk about guns all the time, not just on Internet forums.

If you ever become a pilot you'll realize that a lot of us talk about guns, even at work. Oh wait, don't worry, you'll never become a pilot.

Edited February 19, 2013 by HeloDude

[Guest one]

I was just messing with you. lighten up.

I happen to own a few guns myself.

ETA: I don't feel the need to talk about them "all the time".

Edited February 19, 2013 by one

[Guest one]

I am sure you haven't knocked anyone off their high horse. If you post on this forum for anything other than personal entertainment, you are wasting your time. No one in history has changed their world views from reading someone's comments on an internet forum.

Edited February 19, 2013 by one

[disgruntledemployee]

I am sure you haven't knocked anyone off their high horse. If you post on this forum for anything other than personal entertainment, you are wasting your time. No one in history has changed their world views from reading someone's comments on an internet forum.

Nope. Incorrect. You are wrong. I've changed my entire sociological outlook of this world and the path of 'Merica based entirely on nsplayr's insightful and enlightening posts. Joe's too. Because they know exactly what is right for this nation and even link to other people's articles stating such. Everyone else here is wrong.

Thus, I'm on my super-high horse (courtesy of liberal drug laws), celebratorily shooting my guns in the air (7 round mag 1911s, thanks liberal gun laws).

Out

[kabagram]

This statement says far more about you than anything I ever could.

1) rebuttal

2) I don't declare my own intellectual superiority. I know that I don't know everything, and if someone presents a case that makes more sense than the idea I previously had, I embrace it. But, that requires at least a bare minimum objective standard of proof. People here are, by contrast, set in the rigidity of their ways and go for the hyperbolic moral superiority argument instead of basing it on facts. You could pretty much rename this subforum from "Squadron Bar" to "[citation needed]".

Your analysis is pretty terrible, man. Poking holes in bad arguments and making sarcastic jokes doesn't mean I'm elevating myself above anyone. If anything, I'm just knocking people off of their high horses.

Naturally, you're not going to agree with any critical analysis of yourself and deem it as "terrible". Perhaps it is, but you're not the person I would look to ask. You're constantly referring to the "People here", "the forum members", etc. It's as if you have an inability to discern individuals from the collective. That's called "making a generalization". I only point that out because you're often ranting against broad characterizations and such. Very odd.

But this is what I liked about your post: "I'm just knocking people off thier high horses". I applaud your honesty. Now if only you could make the connection between moral superiority/narcissiscm and knocking people off high horses, you might be on to something. (Hint: hypocrisy)

[discus]

I was just thinking back to the days when I actually read this thread, and learned things about what was currently going on from it. Hell, I even managed to pull an SOS paper out of the discussion and links provided on the first couple pages (Thanks, CH!). Now, it looks like it is going to suffer the same fate as any E-Mail I get from the CGOC. What a shame.

[HU&W]

Of fucking course revenues are based on GDP, what economics class did you fail out of?

cum hoc non propter hoc

[ThreeHoler]

cum hoc non propter hoc

You want him to cum where?

[Guest one]

cum hoc non propter hoc

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that is latin for "A whale's ######".

[kabagram]

Joe, I'm not attacking you, so I'm having trouble understanding why you're being so incredibly defensive. Not every minor critique deserves an angry, rambling response. "Methinks the lady doth protest too much". I'm no psychologist, so I can't claim to be 100% certain that an inferiority complex would make someone feel the need to bring others down in your situation, but even so, I'm sure you'd be ready to vehemently refute it in another angry self-righteous tirade. There's nothing wrong with that, buI perhaps going downtown, singing some karaoke and finding yourself a nice Japanese girlfriend might be a beneficial option for someone facing the challenges you may or may not find yourself dealing with in regard to the anger you obviously feel when visiting he board. Just trying to help. It's not good to be upset all the time. Peace, brother.

[matmacwc]

If you make 10,000,000, contribute 1,000,000; if you make 10, contribute 1. I like that, lets go with it.

[StoleIt]

If you make 10,000,000, contribute 1,000,000; if you make 10, contribute 1. I like that, lets go with it.