Taxes, the Deficit/Debt, and the Fiscal Cliff

[nsplayr]

2 hours ago, HeloDude said:

I agree--the GOP should have suspended the rules and allowed for a simple majority vote.

So you’re ready for just pure majoritarian rule in the Senate huh? Would you expand that policy to all votes or just to specifically spending bills?

[matmacwc]

45 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

So you’re ready for just pure majoritarian rule in the Senate huh? Would you expand that policy to all votes or just to specifically spending bills?

Tread lightly, it wasn't the GOP that started that.

[nsplayr]

I’m just asking questions. I can see the merits of either way and I remember how both parties have taken advantage of rule changes when it suited them.

Obviously it’s natural to want majoritarian rule when your preferred side has the majority and you appreciate the merits of the senate’s somewhat more drawn out process when your preferred side is in the minority.

[HeloDude]

21 hours ago, nsplayr said:

So you’re ready for just pure majoritarian rule in the Senate huh? Would you expand that policy to all votes or just to specifically spending bills?

So you blame the GOP for having a small majority in the Senate and not being able to avert a shutdown, yet you're against a small majority in the Senate from being able to avert a shutdown.. .

[nsplayr]

See above. I can see it both ways.

And yes, under the current system it is the responsibility of the majority in both Houses to produce the votes they need to govern, whether that’s solely from within their caucus or from across the aisle. If they need to reach across the aisle, it’s standard ops for the minority to want to include a policy priority of their own in the bill in exchange for their votes.

The President should also be a leader on the “making the government work” front, but as we saw in both 2013 as well as this year, that sounds easy from the cheap seats but it can be hard to pull off when you are on the field.

Just as a citizen, not a partisan, it’s frustrating when the government doesn’t work. The again I do have partisan interests on policy, and when you’re in the minority you’re often glad you have more levers to pull in the Senate than you do in the House.

What do you think? I was asking you originally after all. Do you go to 50+VP for all Senate business? Do you exempt some spending bills but maintain the legislative veto for other type of legislation? This is an issue with nuance and both sides have been in on sides so I’m interested to hear different arguments for/against changing the current Senate rules. 

Edited January 28, 2018 by nsplayr

[FourFans]

"words, words, words, government shutdown wasn't that bad...more words...who should we blame..."

It's on par with a 500 pound morbidly obese man arguing how getting off the couch and walked to the refrigerator should count as a workout so he should be allowed more food.

The government failed at it's basic function: operating.  How long has it been since congress passed a complete budget?

The system is thoroughly broken.  We should not be measure inches of failure here, we should be demanding success.  But seeing how excellence in any form is frowned upon now, I'm pretty sure that's a lost cause.

[Lord Ratner]

Keep the 60 vote rule. The more barriers to legislation, the better.

[bfargin]

I'm with Lord Ratner. I love slow glacier like action/change from government. We have seen that quickly reacting to situations has unforeseen (sometimes even foreseen) negative consequences (e.g. 14th amendment, 17th amendment ...many others). The intent might have been good with many of our laws, but the followthrough has been terrible.

On the budget front: Getting a budget settled should not be that difficult. Fund what is obligated and then maybe drag out/fight over the other stuff. Holding the complete forgiveness of illegal entry to your country as your bargaining chip, is not reasonable.

[matmacwc]

^This. Fast moving legislation gets us “shovel ready jobs” and bank bailouts, and yes, big O and Bush ar both at fault 

Edited February 6, 2018 by matmacwc

[dream big]

On 2/6/2018 at 1:12 AM, matmacwc said:

^This. Fast moving legislation gets us “shovel ready jobs” and bank bailouts, and yes, big O and Bush ar both at fault 

Or Obamacare.  That being said, in terms of “fast/slow moving legislation” it shouldn’t be this complicated to pass a freaking budget.  Two times in one month that the government potentially shuts down is unsat.  

[Clark Griswold]

Rand Paul on Neil Cavuto, not usually a fan of his but as we pass 20+ trillion debt now with a trillion dollar deficit forecast in few years, along with higher interest rates inevitably necessary, shit is about to get real IMO in a few years. 

Skip to 9:45 and he has a good idea, individual spending bills vs. the all or nothing omnibus bills we choke on now.

Department by Department, vote on each and IMO should have 3 COAs for each: Full Resourcing, 5% haircut across the Department's individual programs or 5% haircut with discretion granted to the head of the Dept to shift resources to achieve the 5% savings.

For the 2018 budget, it is about 3.654 trillion in revenues vs. 4.094 trillion in appropriations, for about 440 billion in deficit spending or about 9% over budget.  Let's dip our toes in the water of fiscal sanity and aim for just 4% over budget and shift just 5% of budget and spending authority to gov officials who don't have a huge need to beg of campaign contributions and face reelection every 2 or 6 years...

 

[Homestar]

Meh, just print more money. That's what I'd do.

[Clark Griswold]

So this is disturbing...

U.S. on a Course to Spend More on Debt Than Defense

Rising interest costs could crowd out other government spending priorities and rattle markets

It's been projected before but we are getting closer and closer and are gathering speed.

The penny plan seems to be the best solution (reduce spending by 1% per year and problem fixes itself in about 5 years) of the current proposals that are out there but not getting any traction.  

The left would not support it (not a slight at them) and the right would support it so why not meet each other half way and cover the other half with tax increases an equal amount (I would suggest elimination of deductions/credits than rate increases), and you get to the same place in about 5 years and no side gave more than the other side.

[Lord Ratner]

So this is disturbing...
U.S. on a Course to Spend More on Debt Than Defense
Rising interest costs could crowd out other government spending priorities and rattle markets
It's been projected before but we are getting closer and closer and are gathering speed.
The penny plan seems to be the best solution (reduce spending by 1% per year and problem fixes itself in about 5 years) of the current proposals that are out there but not getting any traction.  
The left would not support it (not a slight at them) and the right would support it so why not meet each other half way and cover the other half with tax increases an equal amount (I would suggest elimination of deductions/credits than rate increases), and you get to the same place in about 5 years and no side gave more than the other side.

I don't see it happening. The people in America who care about the deficit don't care as much as the people who care about their welfare. The idealistic liberals don't believe that debt is a bad thing, and the career liberals know it gets them votes. The idealistic conservatives can't build a group with enough balls to do something, and the career conservatives are largely indistinguishable from their liberal counterparts.

And I'll place money on the federal government buying out the ~$1.5 trillion in student debt sometime in the next 5ish years. There's no way for a significant portion of the millennial generation to pay off the $100k+ they took on as teenagers, and the economy cannot function if an entire generation can't buy new cars, houses, vacations, etc.

Buckle up

[Clark Griswold]

4 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Buckle up

Agreed.

When a country that has control over its own currency and gets into a debt problem it can:

- Devalue its currency thru printing money and eroding its value, repaying the debt in now less valuable notes quickly getting out of the hole but also temporarily putting its exports on sale.  

- Cut budgets, raise taxes and impose austerity.  Politically untenable in representative democracies of late and in the USA, not likely on the table.

As the world's reserve currency, we can generate a shit ton of ill will if turn on the printing press, come up with another 10 Trillion and start paying our debts in dollars effectively worth 69% less.  Long term self-defeating as much of our clout and success comes from everyone holding and trading (often) in dollars.

Preaching to the choir, but if we don't start the inevitable turn to living within our means the hard turn the market will force on us could lead to domestic turmoil.

[BADFNZ]

Did Military One Source get rid of the free H&R block program?  I can't find it anywhere on their site.  They're pimping some new system called MilTax but I can't even find a link to access that. 

[matmacwc]

As long as it can be fixed (penny plan) they won’t change a thing.  We might be in this until it’s too late, but maybe that’s part of the plan

[Guest]

Did Military One Source get rid of the free H&R block program?  I can't find it anywhere on their site.  They're pimping some new system called MilTax but I can't even find a link to access that. 

I logged into my HR block account and it has a banner at the top for militaryonesource/miltax, so it looks like MilTax is just a new name.


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[mcbush]

40 minutes ago, ihtfp06 said:

I logged into my HR block account and it has a banner at the top for militaryonesource/miltax, so it looks like MilTax is just a new name.


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This checks from what I remember last year. MilTax was just a different name on the same program. Finding the right link is always impossible, though.

[di1630]

Any of you guys have an LLC or small business and if so, what’s the best tax software?


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[nunya]

On 1/19/2019 at 8:08 PM, BADFNZ said:

Did Military One Source get rid of the free H&R block program?  I can't find it anywhere on their site.  They're pimping some new system called MilTax but I can't even find a link to access that. 

It's up now, and it's still an HR Block product.  https://www.militaryonesource.mil/taxprep

Edited January 23, 2019 by nunya

[Mitch Weaver]

We pay more interest servicing the US debt in a single week than the amount requested to fund the border wall. That said:

1.  Establish term limits

2. Eliminate borrowing. Create an exchange to trade existing debt.

3. Eliminate income tax and implement a consumption tax. Undocumented families of 10 ppl living down the street all become tax payers. 

4.  Eliminate pensions. 

 

 

[Guest]

We pay more interest servicing the US debt in a single week than the amount requested to fund the border wall. That said:
1.  Establish term limits
2. Eliminate borrowing. Create an exchange to trade existing debt.
3. Eliminate income tax and implement a consumption tax. Undocumented families of 10 ppl living down the street all become tax payers. 
4.  Eliminate pensions. 
 
 

A consumption tax would be regressive (and thus never gain the backing of the Ds). Additionally, it would discourage spending which would have severe implications for our economy.


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[herkbier]

How about consumption tax married with universal basic income? I would think the Left could get on board with that.

Has an income tax replaced by a consumption tax ever been tried? Seems like there are states with no income tax that seem to do alright.. also seems like some states with high income taxes that aren’t doing so hot.  Do we *know* it will discourage spending enough to severely impact the economy?

[Lord Ratner]

How about consumption tax married with universal basic income? I would think the Left could get on board with that.

Has an income tax replaced by a consumption tax ever been tried? Seems like there are states with no income tax that seem to do alright.. also seems like some states with high income taxes that aren’t doing so hot.  Do we *know* it will discourage spending enough to severely impact the economy?

It wouldn't hurt spending if the net tax change was neutral (reduce/eliminate income taxes).

 

There's no universe where the Democrats support this. Our tax system is arguably the most progressive in the world. A national sales tax would mean the bottom 50% of Americans go from paying 3% of federal taxes to around 25%.

 

However if you want to see it working on a smaller scale, just head to Texas. Tolls and property taxes may be annoying, but everyone participates, not just the wealthy.