Taxes, the Deficit/Debt, and the Fiscal Cliff

[Guest one]

I actually think a flat tax is something that many people would support. It is simple and easy to understand. The only thing I would disagree with is..It seems like it would be a waste to tax someone just to give them that same money back since they are getting welfare or whatever federal aid. It would be beneficial to just have a very low bottom line of a minimum annual income before you had to pay the 10%. I guess taxing them wouldn't be horrible, but it would seem odd to take $100 from someone every month and send them a check for $200 the same day.

If you removed every loop hole and just made everyone pay a flat tax, I wonder what the rate would have to be to pull in the exact revenue we get today.

Edited February 20, 2013 by one

[pawnman]

The first troll was pretty good, but you kinda blew it with this post.

Flat taxes are simple and easy to understand, but it's terrible policy. It's far too regressive, which is why it never even comes close to being implemented, much less discussed. Very few modern, developed nations in the world have a flat tax policy for a reason. Out of the top 50 (out of 195) countries in the world, only 4 have a flat tax scheme. Then again, the vast majority of modern, developed nations are politically to the left of the United States, anyway.

Regarding our current tax scheme, it does have its issues as a result of the government trying to nudge the economy one way or another. However, the act of removing all loopholes has secondary and tertiary effects that may not be immediately apparent beyond the idea of getting to save a few bucks.

Maybe, but one wonders how much lower rates could be if we did a tiered "flat-tax". Maintain a somewhat progressive scheme, but eliminate all the loopholes. Then you wouldn't have multi-millionaire CEOs hiding all their cash offshore, or as stock, or as company perks. While many things in the current system are supposed to nudge the economy one way or another, what really happens is that it creates weasels. We create weird incentives that don't work as designed, then we blame people who react to the incentives instead of the incentives themselves. Every person who whines about how little Warren Buffett or Mitt Romney paid in taxes last year did everything they could to reduce their own tax burdens. Create a tax system that's easier to understand, and harder to hide income, and people will pay more. Then you can start lowering the rates. It sounds good to say the rich have a tax rate of 39%...but how does it do anyone any good if the rate they actually pay at, after deductions, credits, etc is only 15%?

[matmacwc]

Russia has a flat tax

[TreeA10]

I think we need something like a flat tax. Everybody needs skin in the game. With 70,000 pages of tax code, billions spent on calculating your taxes, billions more on collecting your taxes, the idiots in Congress have created a monster. It just should not be so difficult to pay your taxes.

[Fuzz]

Flat taxes are simple and easy to understand, but it's terrible policy. It's far too regressive not socialistic, government redistribution of wealth

FIFY

[Butters]

I think we need something like a flat tax. Everybody needs skin in the game. With 70,000 pages of tax code, billions spent on calculating your taxes, billions more on collecting your taxes, the idiots in Congress have created a monster. It just should not be so difficult to pay your taxes.

Problem 1: What do we do with all the newly unemployed people that make a living off the system being complicated (lawyers, accountants, and the tax prep software industry)?

Problem 2: How can the President redistribute wealth if the system is fair?

[spaceman]

Problem 1: What do we do with all the newly unemployed people that make a living off the system being complicated (lawyers, accountants, and the tax prep software industry)?

Who the F cares?

[HeloDude]

FIFY

Careful now...if you disagree with Joe he's going to call you stupid, heartless, and let you know why he's correct and why you should never question his opinion.

[M2]

Russia has a flat tax

And pieces of flair! They made the Jews wear them!

[338skybolt]

Careful now...if you disagree with Joe he's going to call you stupid, heartless, and let you know why he's correct and why you should never question his opinion.

So in other words, a liberal.

[HeloDude]

So in other words, a liberal.

I forgot to add that he's going to call you a racist as well.

[dream big]

I forgot to add that he's going to call you a racist as well.

Standard liberal tactics

[338skybolt]

I forgot to add that he's going to call you a racist as well.

An intransigent racist clinging to my guns and religion. :-)

[Guest one]

[Fuzz]

It is so true that it is sad...

[Karl Hungus]

Surprise: The Boehner/GOP Alternative to Sequester is... More Spending!

https://reason.com/blog/2013/02/20/surprise-the-boehnergop-alternative-to-s

[HeloDude]

Actually, I'll call you an idiot, because for a minute there we had a pretty decent conversation about actual policy until you decided to post.

From you, I'll wear it as a badge of honor!

[Vertigo]

Everybody needs skin in the game.

This is one phrase I wish would be eliminated from our lexicon.

[Learjetter]

www.fairtax.org

Tax consumption, not income. Prebate for necessities. Completely fair, easy to understand and implement.

[TreeA10]

This is one phrase I wish would be eliminated from our lexicon.

Stakeholder? I don't care what we call it as long as everyone is under the same umbrella, threat, tax, penalty, inconvienience, etc.

[BitteEinBit]

www.fairtax.org

Tax consumption, not income. Prebate for necessities. Completely fair, easy to understand and implement.

This sounds great in theory...until you're in down economy and people are saving money and aren't buying things, except necessities which you have tax prebated. What will be your source of revenue if spending decreases? What if this tax actually decreases consumer spending or even creates a black market? What if people decide to just buy their goods and services in a different country as to not pay these taxes? Is there even one successful economy out there using this form of taxation as a single source of revenue?

Note: I'm a caveman economist...someone please educate me.

[Learjetter]

This sounds great in theory...until you're in down economy and people are saving money and aren't buying things, except necessities which you have tax prebated. What will be your source of revenue if spending decreases? What if this tax actually decreases consumer spending or even creates a black market? What if people decide to just buy their goods and services in a different country as to not pay these taxes? Is there even one successful economy out there using this form of taxation as a single source of revenue?

Note: I'm a caveman economist...someone please educate me.

Me too. I read the FAQs, decided I liked the concept. https://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=FAQs

[nsplayr]

Surprised no one has brought this up yet. There's a new plan being floated by Simpson and Bowles. I kinda like it, probably has no future in Congress.

This is a good article about the budgetary push and pull you get from competing generations (graying baby-boomers vs the kids of today).

Edited February 21, 2013 by nsplayr

[pawnman]

This sounds great in theory...until you're in down economy and people are saving money and aren't buying things, except necessities which you have tax prebated. What will be your source of revenue if spending decreases? What if this tax actually decreases consumer spending or even creates a black market? What if people decide to just buy their goods and services in a different country as to not pay these taxes? Is there even one successful economy out there using this form of taxation as a single source of revenue?

Note: I'm a caveman economist...someone please educate me.

People will still buy gasoline, toilet paper, cable, beer....Even at it's lowest point, our economy has never completely ceased consuming things.

Surprised no one has brought this up yet. There's a new plan being floated by Simpson and Bowles. I kinda like it, probably has no future in Congress.

This is a good article about the budgetary push and pull you get from competing generations (graying baby-boomers vs the kids of today).

It will likely go nowhere because Obama is ignoring all the advice of his own commission.

[BitteEinBit]

People will still buy gasoline, toilet paper, cable, beer....Even at it's lowest point, our economy has never completely ceased consuming things.

Yeah, got it. I understand people are going to still buy necessities like gas, toilet paper...I'll even throw beer in that category. These necessities (minus the beer) are supposedly prebated up to a point based on your income. Do you really think people buy enough, even at a 23% tax rate, to generate and sustain the required revenue to run this country? That is a lot of shit paper. That is my point. We would be banking the revenue for the entire budget of the federal government on toilet paper, gas, and beer....an exaggeration I know, but in a down economy people aren't necessarily buying expensive things...certainly not enough to generate $4T in revenue. We aren't even talking state taxes yet. Consumption tax as a single source of revenue is a terrible idea....the people pushing this aren't thinking it through. Again...caveman here, but I'm open to learning something new.