Taxes, the Deficit/Debt, and the Fiscal Cliff

[Guest one]

Let’s just pretend that every Republican won this last election. Mitt Romney is going to be President and every Congressman and Senator is a Republican. They would raise debt ceiling without any controversy. It has to be done or there will be immediate serious economic repercussions.

Edited December 1, 2012 by one

[HeloDude]

Let’s just pretend that every Republican won this last election. Mitt Romney is going to be President and every Congressman and Senator is a Republican. They would raise debt ceiling without any controversy. It has to be done or there will be immediate serious economic repercussions.

The GOP got slammed in 2006 by their own party for increased spending. The GOP isn't saying they won't raise the debt ceiling (try doing some research), rather they are saying the reason we are having to do this so often and to such an extreme amount is because of the out of control spending and entitlement increases...so they are using it as leverage to get cuts. Remember the smoking analogy? They aren't suggesting quiting cold turkey, but they are trying to reduce the amount of cigarettes being smoked everyday.

It's like a parent telling their kids that they'll stop paying their tuition if they don't shape up and improve their grades.

What I find sad, just like Rainman said, is that a lot of you guys don't care that the country is spending like drunken sailors to an unsustainable amount. You either support irresponsible behavior or you don't understand what is happening.

[Guest one]

Maybe you should do some research.

“I can assure you … that to get my vote to raise the debt ceiling, for whatever that's worth, my one vote, Medicare will be a part of it,” McConnell said Sunday on NBC’s “Meet the Press.” This was from the last time the debt ceiling needed to be raised. Boenher is saying the same type of stuff now. This uncertainty led to the US getting its credit downgraded.

The GOP is using the debt ceiling to negotiate other budget issues. The debt ceiling is not our budget.

I am all for the GOP negotiating with the Democrats to get more budgets cuts but I think that if they keep telling the world that they might delay raising the debt ceiling it is going to hurt the economy.

ETA: Our national debt has increased every single year since President Ford. Since then, it has never decreased. Our debt ceiling gets raised because like it or not, our debt is going to increase because we keep spending. Our debt is not a partisan issue. It is a problem with our nation. Even when our debt was only a fraction of what it is today, our government wasn't trying to control spending. From Nixon to Obama it has been the same shit.

The Republicans want to raise the debt ceiling as much as the Democrats do...It has to be done.

I know how much you like analogies.

You compared the debt ceiling to a credit card. That analogy is not accurate. The debt ceiling is our credit limit. If we keep spending we need a higher credit limit. First, we need to stop spending, and then we can stop increasing our credit limit. After we start paying down our debt we can lower the debt ceiling. You don’t lower your credit limit on a credit card before you start making payments on it.

Edited December 1, 2012 by one

[HeloDude]

Maybe you should do some research.

“I can assure you … that to get my vote to raise the debt ceiling, for whatever that's worth, my one vote, Medicare will be a part of it,” McConnell said Sunday on NBC’s “Meet the Press.” This was from the last time the debt ceiling needed to be raised. Boenher is saying the same type of stuff now. This uncertainty led to the US getting its credit downgraded.

The GOP is using the debt ceiling to negotiate other budget issues. The debt ceiling is not our budget.

I am all for the GOP negotiating with the Democrats to get more budgets cuts but I think that if they keep telling the world that they might delay raising the debt ceiling it is going to hurt the economy.

You just repeated what I said...congratulations. The GOP is using the debt ceiling debate as leverage to reign in on spending. You're as bad as one of my prior students that would bring things up in a debrief...that was previously debriefed.

The budget (or lack there of)/out of control spending is what is causing the debt ceiling to be continually raised--but now it's having to be raised more often and at much higher amounts because of....wait for it...that's right--out of control spending! The one directly affects the other. If the debt limit is not raised (which I know will not happen), cuts are automatically put in place because the government could only the spend with the revenue they take in--what a concept. It's not like the GOP is tying the debt limit debate to abortion laws.

Again, do some research on the issue. Also, research what happens when you have unlimited borrowing/ever growing debt.

[Fuzz]

Maybe you should do some research.

“I can assure you … that to get my vote to raise the debt ceiling, for whatever that's worth, my one vote, Medicare will be a part of it,” McConnell said Sunday on NBC’s “Meet the Press.” This was from the last time the debt ceiling needed to be raised. Boenher is saying the same type of stuff now. This uncertainty led to the US getting its credit downgraded.

Where do you get your stuff from Media Matters?

"Lowering the nation’s rating to one notch below AAA, the credit rating company said “political brinkmanship” in the debate over the debt had made the U.S. government’s ability to manage its finances “less stable, less effective and less predictable.” It said the bipartisan agreement reached this week to find at least $2.1 trillion in budget savings “fell short” of what was necessary to tame the nation’s debt over time and predicted that leaders would not be likely to achieve more savings in the future."

https://www.washingto...eIxI_story.html

The GOP is using the debt ceiling to negotiate other budget issues. The debt ceiling is not our budget.

I am all for the GOP negotiating with the Democrats to get more budgets cuts but I think that if they keep telling the world that they might delay raising the debt ceiling it is going to hurt the economy.

So what exactly do you proposed the GOP does to control spending, its not like we have passed a budget in the last four years. The debt ceiling has become the defacto budget for current operation of the government, failure to raise the ceiling only forces the government to live within its means. The debt, interest and SS/Medicare/ect. will all still be paid, unfortunately not much else will be so we (military members and all the other federal workers) will be SOL.

[Guest one]

Where do you get your stuff from Media Matters?

"Lowering the nation’s rating to one notch below AAA, the credit rating company said “political brinkmanship” in the debate over the debt had made the U.S. government’s ability to manage its finances “less stable, less effective and less predictable.” It said the bipartisan agreement reached this week to find at least $2.1 trillion in budget savings “fell short” of what was necessary to tame the nation’s debt over time and predicted that leaders would not be likely to achieve more savings in the future."

https://www.washingto...eIxI_story.html

No, I got my information from the people responsible for downgrading our rating in the first place... I know how insane that must sound.

"We lowered our long-term rating on the U.S. because we believe that the prolonged controversy over raising the statutory debt ceiling and the related fiscal policy debate indicate that further near-term progress containing the growth in public spending, especially on entitlements, or on reaching an agreement on raising revenues is less likely than we previously assumed and will remain a contentious and fitful process."

https://www.standardandpoors.com/ratings/articles/en/us/?assetID=1245316529563

[Guest one]

You just repeated what I said...congratulations. The GOP is using the debt ceiling debate as leverage to reign in on spending. You're as bad as one of my prior students that would bring things up in a debrief...that was previously debriefed.

The budget (or lack there of)/out of control spending is what is causing the debt ceiling to be continually raised--but now it's having to be raised more often and at much higher amounts because of....wait for it...that's right--out of control spending! The one directly affects the other. If the debt limit is not raised (which I know will not happen), cuts are automatically put in place because the government could only the spend with the revenue they take in--what a concept. It's not like the GOP is tying the debt limit debate to abortion laws.

Again, do some research on the issue. Also, research what happens when you have unlimited borrowing/ever growing debt.

It is a stupid way to get leverage because it is in the entire nation’s best interest for the debt ceiling to be raised. If the GOP doesn’t raise the debt ceiling it will do damage to the economy. Most of what the GOP is fighting for I support. I think that matching tax increases with budget cuts, dollar to dollar, is a great compromise on both ends. I just don’t think we should risk our credit rating to get the cuts we need.

I know you might not believe me, but I am a Republican. I agree with the cuts the Republicans are trying to get. I just don’t agree with how they are trying to get it.

[Fuzz]

No, I got my information from the people responsible for downgrading our rating in the first place... I know how insane that must sound.

"We lowered our long-term rating on the U.S. because we believe that the prolonged controversy over raising the statutory debt ceiling and the related fiscal policy debate indicate that further near-term progress containing the growth in public spending, especially on entitlements, or on reaching an agreement on raising revenues is less likely than we previously assumed and will remain a contentious and fitful process."

https://www.standarda...D=1245316529563

If you read the rest of the article its not because of the debt limit alone, it is mostly due to long term increase in the debt and the governments failure to deal with the major issues like entitlements.

" Our opinion is that elected officials remain wary of tackling the structural issues required to effectively address the rising U.S. public debt burden in a manner consistent with a 'AAA' rating and with 'AAA' rated sovereign peers"

So yes they didn't like the debt ceiling being used, but they more so didn't like the ever growing projected debt of the U.S. government.

[Guest one]

I read it all. That is why I copied the link so you can see the S&Ps entire evaluation. Everything with the debt and government spending are broad problems that can't be blamed entirely on one party. You can't blame the Democrats for everything because the GOP has contributed to just as much of the debt as the Democrats. The one very specific failure listed by the S&P is the failure by Congress to settle the statutory debt ceiling. You can only blame Congress for that one and unfortunately, more specifically, you can blame the GOP.

We are talking about the debt ceiling, so I think the S&Ps evaluation of the damage done by Congress a few months ago is very relevant to the current debate.

Do you think it was a coincidence that we just happened to get our rating downgraded immediately after the GOP decided to threaten to not raise the debt ceiling?

Edited December 1, 2012 by one

[Fuzz]

No I don't, I think it was the final feather in the cap, but I think we are missing the forest for the trees.

So back to my second question:

So what exactly do you proposed the GOP does to control spending, its not like we have passed a budget in the last four years. The debt ceiling has become the defacto budget for current operation of the government, failure to raise the ceiling only forces the government to live within its means. The debt, interest and SS/Medicare/ect. will all still be paid, unfortunately not much else will be so we (military members and all the other federal workers) will be SOL.

[Guest one]

I think we should try to get as close to “a dollar of new revenue equals a dollar of cuts” as we can get. The GOP is not going to get everything they want because we lost the election. We lost the election because we ran a man with very little potential to win. That is every Republican who chose Romney's fault.

I don’t think we should use the economy to play chicken with the Democrats for the sole purpose to see who is going to flinch first. We need to cut the budget but what would be the point if we hurt the economy in the process.

ETA: I do not know why I am writing so much. Tomorrow, Rainman is just going to quote the 2,000 words I have written and respond with…

Wrong.

Edited December 1, 2012 by one

[Fuzz]

I don’t think we should use the economy to play chicken with the Democrats for the sole purpose to see who is going to flinch first. We need to cut the budget but what would be the point if we hurt the economy in the process.

Keeping our government from becoming insolvent???

[billy pilgrim]

Always thought bitching about the direction this country is headed was reserved for crusty retirees.

Here I am in my 30's and I can't believe this shit.

I think it's less about political parties and more about the entitled baby boomer generation that is now, for the most part, running (and ruining) this country by trading in long term American prosperity for short term personal goals.

Or maybe it's because we've just been so rich and spoiled for so long we don't have a solid persective on what we're going to lose.

I don't know. Higher taxes will only lead to more gov't spending. Might take a huge crisis to bring this country back together, until then I don't see anyone in Washington making any changes that will really affect this issue.

[BlackKnight]

Dude. Do you have ANY idea how to write a post that is short and to the point and not half (or more) a page long?!?

It was even worse when you and helodude were rambling on for 20 pages about polls.

[Guest one]

I'd love to have you as the GOP rep at the negotiating table...Boehner and company have been offered deals way better than what you're willing to accept and still turned them down.

Are you talking about before the election? Now that Obama won, the GOP is not going to get as much as they could have before the election.

I think there have been some differences in opinion on what is considered budget cuts. The Democrats are trying to raise the budget in a number of areas while cutting in other places. Just for example, if you increase the budget 1 billion dollars in welfare and cut defense spending 1 billion dollars, you didn't cut the budget at all. You are in the same place.

You can't say you are decreasing the budget by spending money somewhere else.

[pawnman]

Are you talking about before the election? Now that Obama won, the GOP is not going to get as much as they could have before the election.

I think there have been some differences in opinion on what is considered budget cuts. The Democrats are trying to raise the budget in a number of areas while cutting in other places. Just for example, if you increase the budget 1 billion dollars in welfare and cut defense spending 1 billion dollars, you didn't cut the budget at all. You are in the same place.

You can't say you are decreasing the budget by spending money somewhere else.

You also can't say you're cutting taxes when you're just renewing tax cuts you argued against in the first place.

[TreeA10]

Let's see....the President submitted a budget nobody in his OWN party voted for. The Senate has not passed a budget now in three years. The budget submitted by the Republicans has not even been taken up for debate in the Senate. It the mean time, we have a continuing resolution that allows the budget to continue to grow under baseline budgeting rules where a decrease in the amount of growth is deemed a cut. We have $80+ trillion of spending liabilities and you guys are discussing rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

[Guest]

Maybe you should do some research.

Holy shit.

The credit card you seek to cut to prevent future spending is called an appropriations bill. Not raising the debt ceiling is like getting a power bill and contemplating whether or not you should go ahead and pay it. It's making good on past debts, which as a concept has nothing to do with future spending. If you want lower spending, great, tell Congress to stop appropriating more money than the government receives in revenues; if you want to ruin the credit rating of the country, tell them not to pay our bills i.e. raise the debt ceiling.

Does someone actually want to offer an alternate view on the purpose or function of the debt ceiling? Does anyone actually want to defend keeping it around as an ineffectual tool for limiting Congressional spending that is itself controlled by the same Congress that's over-spending during the appropriations process? Bueller?

Not sure if serious.

Can't be.

[Guest]

Slow yourself down. Read your own posts. The answers are in there, among the contradictions. That's why I keep wondering if you are being serious or sarcastic.

I'm not going to enter a quote war. Primarily because it is not required if you take the advice above.

[Guest one]

I will save Rainman 10 seconds..

Educate me then...

Nope.

[TreeA10]

I can't believe you're serious. What idiot actually thinks you can borrow without consequence? I assume you think it is not real money borrowed from real people who at some point will actually want their money back. The worse part of all this is the money will have to be paid back by people not old enough to vote right now and their children. Possibly more generations than that. The UK paid off the WWII loans made by the US in 2006. In the interim, we used that loan to influence their foreign policy, IIRC. Not a position you want to be in if it can be avoided.

[Guest one]

I can't believe you're serious. What idiot actually thinks you can borrow without consequence? I assume you think it is not real money borrowed from real people who at some point will actually want their money back. The worse part of all this is the money will have to be paid back by people not old enough to vote right now and their children. Possibly more generations than that. The UK paid off the WWII loans made by the US in 2006. In the interim, we used that loan to influence their foreign policy, IIRC. Not a position you want to be in if it can be avoided.

I am having trouble understanding your logic. We can raise the debt ceiling to 100 trillion dollars and it doesn't mean we should raise our debt that high (I don't think this is a good idea but you get my point). It has very little to do with the consequences of our debt. The consequences will be worse if we do not raise the debt ceiling.

Are you suggesting that Republicans should not support raising the debt ceiling? Should we default on our debt?

ETA: I do not like the idea of the president being able to do this on his own but the republicans shouldn't be too aggressive using this as leverage for the sake of the economy.

Edited December 2, 2012 by one

[Guest]

I am serious, I sh*t you guys not, I am serious. Believe it.

Ok.

Funny, this serious talk reminds me of the Terry Tate parody videos at my retirement.

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=RzToNo7A-94&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DRzToNo7A-94

Believe that...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=7aZMS6st3D4

[matmacwc]

I am serious. You know what else is serious? No one has yet offered a good reason why we should keep the debt ceiling around. No one has yet offered an alternate explanation of the appropriations process. Do you think there's a ice cube's chance in hell I'll change my mind or even be influenced by a different POV.....

And that's when I started thinking about my other favorite web site.

[Guest]

There are consequences, but not what you make it out to be, exactly.

Nor is it what you make it out to be, exactly.

You are marginally correct about some of the things you said about the global sovereign debt market. But only marginally. And only some.

You are wrong enough about the majority to have a very wrong overall hypothesis.