Taxes, the Deficit/Debt, and the Fiscal Cliff

[Guest]

nsplayer and I had a discussion about the Tea Party a while back. I can't even remember it all except that I think I advocated that the Tea Party influence was not sustainable as a force in the GOP for the obvious reasons we just witnessed over the past year.

The GOP appears to be making their course correction move and have chosen winners and losers.

https://www.guardian.co.uk/world/fiscal-cliff-blog/2012/dec/06/fiscal-cliff-obama-polls-live?CMP=twt_gu&fb=native

[Prozac]

Repubs are already talking Jeb Bush in 2016. Might not have a bad shot against Hillary. Apparently the elder Bush, who is usually quiet, has been doing some public pushing for the party to change course as of late.

[Guest one]

Yeah, that is what Republicans need. We need to closer associate the Republican name with the Bush family.

Cheney's gay daughter has a better shot at winning in 2016.

Edited December 7, 2012 by one

[Guest]

This is the kind of insanely stupid shit that is driving us off a cliff.

This downstream behavior driven by an insatiable need for upstream dollars making people do anything to get the "free money." Totally irresponsible and I would argue criminally neglectful behavior.

https://www.npr.org/2012/12/07/166745290/school-district-owes-1-billion-on-100-million-loan

[Prozac]

Jeb is not his brother. I think it would be a move in the right direction for the party. Somewhat centrist, he'd probably pull in more than a few independents and may secure FL in a national election. And to the story Rainman linked......wow. These are the schools my kids will be attending soon. Guess I'd better start saving for private school.

[Guest]

These are the schools my kids will be attending soon. Guess I'd better start saving for private school.

Fuck that, if you live out there you need to start Doomsday Prepping. California's goin' down.

[Guest one]

George H.W. Bush is a great man but no one in this family tree should try to become president.

Edited December 8, 2012 by one

[Guest]

I'll take the hit for starting this, kind of. My post was related to the current negotiations wrt possible GOP movement on taxes.

Take it to another fucking thread.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Rainman A-10

[Homestar]

###### that, if you live out there you need to start Doomsday Prepping. California's goin' down.

Seems like a case of "If I owe the bank $100,000 I have a problem....If I owe the bank $10,000,000 the bank has a problem."

Default seems inevitable.

[slackline]

I doubt we'll ever default on our debt. Our nation borrows money because it has the ability to do so freely, but as soon as that ability to borrow becomes threatened, we will inevitably put forth whatever measures are required to keep it sustainable. It's similar to all the drama regarding raising the debt ceiling, there's no way we would ever NOT raise it. It's just that politicians want to get every bit of political theater and posturing that they possibly can before the deadline hits.

It's simply one power grab attempt after another. If we go over the fiscal cliff, it will be completely for political posturing reasons. The fact that the GOP keeps refusing to budge on the issue of the highest tax bracket seems very silly to me, because news outfits keep reporting that more and more Americans are siding with Obama and the Democrats on this thing. If the GOP doesn't give any ground, then Americans are going to blame the GOP for going over the cliff, not Obama.

That's only because more and more Americans have no clue what is actually going on. They blindly follow what CNN, MSNBC, FOX, etc tells them. Not saying Fox is saying same thing as CNN, etc, just that people follow their BS just the same. Show hard facts where continuing to drive the tax rates up ever solved the problem. If it creates more revenue the govt just finds more uses for it. People may blame the GOP, but it isn't their fault. They are equally as inept as the Dems.

[Guest]

It's simply one power grab attempt after another.

Not sure who you think is grabbing power or what power they are grabbing. The problem we are facing is a result of both parties buying, not grabbing, power with borrowed money.

I don't think we will default (or become insolvent) because I am trying to stay optimistic that there are enough people on both sides who see how we are really in deep shit if we don't get the debt under control.

We will default eventually unless we change something. Simple math.

Unfortunately, there are too many people who think this is all about politics. They truly believe think the unfunded entitlement program liabilities will somehow get covered, the current trajectory of debt expansion is sustainable and we will never default because we can always borrow more without any economic consequences.

Reckless, irresponsible and foolish.

[czecksikhs]

###### that, if you live out there you need to start Doomsday Prepping. California's goin' down.

California will just be the first of many. New York, Illinois, and New Jersey will shortly follow.

I doubt we'll ever default on our debt. Our nation borrows money because it has the ability to do so freely, but as soon as that ability to borrow becomes threatened, we will inevitably put forth whatever measures are required to keep it sustainable.

The federal government may print all the money that it wants and that will work just fine, right up until it doesn't. The states have no such option and you can see that in all the municipalities going bankrupt and paying out 20 cents on the dollar for pensions, cutting services and employees, etc.

[HU&W]

This is Obama's presidency and success or failure will rest squarely on his shoulders. There will not be an asterisk next to his name in the history books saying "it was the Republicans' fault."

[Guest]

Blue states having some problems? Weird.

[matmacwc]

Blue states having some problems? Weird.

And that fact not in the news, strange.

Edited December 9, 2012 by matmacwc

[Vertigo]

Before the U.S. defaults on its debt (hypothetically)... what are the chances we would enforce collection on the foreign debts we hold? As of Jan 2011 we held some $6 Trillion in foreign nations debt. Shouldn't we be forcing them to pay us, so we can pay our bills?

Yes we'd lose the diplomatic leverage of holding that debt, but wouldn't that be less of an impact than going under?

Edited December 9, 2012 by Vertigo

[Vertigo]

Think we'd be any more successful as a debtee making collections than a debtor making payments?

Well we do have the thugs to force the issue... many of them frequent this board.

[Guest]

I'm in a blue state. What is good about that is not only does the president want to raise my taxes, the governor also wants to enhance my quality of life by raising my taxes.

The Democratic governor's plan would raise nearly $2.9 billion from the top 5 percent of taxpayers, including a new property tax on homes valued at more than $1 million.

“My budget represents my values and priorities, one of which is to keep my promises that I made to the people of Minnesota last fall,” said Mr. Dayton, who is an heir to a famed department store family(Target).

Much more quality of life enhancement by state and federal govt and I might go broke.

[Vertigo]

That's an interesting concept...

Just making a tongue in cheek joke. Correlating the audience here with mafia thugs collecting on a debt. Wasn't being serious.

[Groundbounder]

Before the U.S. defaults on its debt (hypothetically)... what are the chances we would enforce collection on the foreign debts we hold? As of Jan 2011 we held some $6 Trillion in foreign nations debt. Shouldn't we be forcing them to pay us, so we can pay our bills?

Yes we'd lose the diplomatic leverage of holding that debt, but wouldn't that be less of an impact than going under?

Great idea. I'm sure they are all awash with cash...... Ever heard you can't get blood from a turnip?

[Learjetter]

Think we'd be any more successful as a debtee making collections than a debtor making payments?

It's been said before...

If I owe you $100,000...I have a problem

If I owe you $6,000,000,000,000....YOU have a problem.

[Magellan]

I'm in a blue state. What is good about that is not only does the president want to raise my taxes, the governor also wants to enhance my quality of life by raising my taxes.

I would gladly pay MN taxes to have the schools, public infrastructure (ALMOST no toll roads never mind about that one bridge), industry, and higher educational opportunities that MN has to offer. Between myself and my sugar momma we pay plenty in taxes, but what we pay is a pittance for the services and stability our government provides.

Much more quality of life enhancement by state and federal govt and I might go broke.

[Guest]

Wow.

I'm glad you think what you and your sugar momma pay in taxes is a pittance. I don't.

I'm also glad you think you get way more than you pay for. Unfortunately, you're right. The govt is giving away more than they are being paid.

The stability we have is not because of taxes nor is it because of the deficit spending you're so happily enjoying. In fact, it is at risk for that very reason.

[Guest]

I would gladly pay MN taxes to have the...industry, and higher educational opportunities that MN has to offer.

BTW, possibly the dumbest statement ever made.

I am always amazed when people think their taxes pay for things like "industry" and private education.

[Guest one]

BTW, possibly the dumbest statement ever made.

I am always amazed when people think their taxes pay for things like "industry" and private education.

People make choices like these all the time. If you want to move to a very good neighborhood with very good schools, you are going to have to pay the higher property taxes found for that city. If you do not like it you can move to a different city. Most people that can afford it enjoy the benefits enough to stay. It is same on the state level to a certain degree. Many people like to pay more taxes because the benefits often greatly outweigh the costs.

Paying taxes is largely up to you because you decide where to live.

Infrastructure and industry go hand and hand. Taxes pay for infrastructure which is an important part of developing industry. Taxes don’t pay for private education (except in rare circumstances) but taxes can be used to make a public school compete with the best private schools in the country. If you don’t like it because you are being taxed but do not have children, you can move. If you can’t afford to move, you are most likely exempt from paying the taxes in the first place.

Edited December 10, 2012 by one