Taxes, the Deficit/Debt, and the Fiscal Cliff

[magnetfreezer]

If you don’t like it because you are being taxed but do not have children, you can move. If you can’t afford to move, you are most likely exempt from paying the taxes in the first place.

Most schools are funded by property taxes, the rates for which are not progressive like the income tax scale.

[Guest one]

Most schools are funded by property taxes, the rates for which are not progressive like the income tax scale.

If you are low income, there are many low income property tax credits. It depends on where you live because there are programs at the federal, state, and county level.

[Guest]

People make choices like these all the time. If you want to move to a very good neighborhood with very good schools, you are going to have to pay the higher property taxes found for that city. If you do not like it you can move to a different city. Most people that can afford it enjoy the benefits enough to stay. It is same on the state level to a certain degree. Many people like to pay more taxes because the benefits often greatly outweigh the costs.

Hey, thanks for the craniums up. That's something I didn't know.

The problem with your statement is you are not putting it in the proper context. can you see that for yourself or does someone have to explain it to you?

Many people like to pay more taxes because the benefits often greatly outweigh the costs.

They do? Is that right? So you're saying many people like paying higher taxes because they get great benefits? Is that why we are now focusing on the top 2%?

Where are these "many people" you refer to? Is there a way to identify them so that we can get them to volunteer to pay more in taxes? Who did those "many people" vote for and did they vote so that they themselves could pay more in taxes because of the tremendous exponential value they see when they give their money to the government?

Paying taxes is largely up to you because you decide where to live.

So, love it or leave it? Seriously?

Again, can you put the proper context on this to see how silly this is as a rationale for the state increasing people's income and property taxes in the ways I described here in Minnesota? Top 2% take a hit (actually, Dayton was talking about anyone over $110k/yr at one point) and anyone with property valued over $1myn takes a hit from the state (not the local govt).

Infrastructure and industry go hand and hand. Taxes pay for infrastructure which is an important part of developing industry.

Thanks again for the enlightened high school civics lecture. Any ideas about the practical application of infrastructure and "developing industry." Are you saying "if we tax more then we build it they will come" is the right approach?

Context. Try it.

Taxes don’t pay for private education (except in rare circumstances) but taxes can be used to make a public school compete with the best private schools in the country. If you don’t like it because you are being taxed but do not have children, you can move. If you can’t afford to move, you are most likely exempt from paying the taxes in the first place.

WTF are you talking about? Seriously, WTFO?

[Buddy Spike]

If you don’t like it because you are being taxed but do not have children, you can move. If you can’t afford to move, you are most likely exempt from paying the taxes in the first place.

Horribly myopic view of the world. Do you think moving is cheap? Especially when you live near where you work?

[Guest one]

Where are these "many people" you refer to? Is there a way to identify them so that we can get them to volunteer to pay more in taxes? Who did those "many people" vote for and did they vote so that they themselves could pay more in taxes because of the tremendous exponential value they see when they give their money to the government?

People who live in Marin County in California pay some of the highest property taxes on the West coast. They also get to have the best public transportation system and schools that produce some of the best test scores in the country. I would be happy to pay the taxes knowing what the county has to offer. If you live in Detroit your taxes will likely be very low but the city has very little to offer. You pay for nice things in the form of taxes. People who live in Marin County that complain about high taxes are usually the same people that would complain if funding for their child's school was cut. Many people choose high taxes because of the benefit. Just because people do not like paying a bill doesn’t mean they do not choose to pay high taxes.

You can see stark contrasts between states as well.

Edited December 10, 2012 by one

[Guest one]

Horribly myopic view of the world. Do you think moving is cheap? Especially when you live near where you work?

This was the same topic we had in the Election thread. Rainman and others talked about how people that lived below the poverty line should move to find better jobs instead of getting government handouts... If poor people should move to find work, I think the middle class can find a way to move if they really hate their states taxes that much. If the taxes are really that horrible then move. My point is, the taxes are not even close to being that bad.

Quotes about people on welfare moving to find jobs...

This may be true for those of us who have been relatively successful in life, but is simply not an option for many. People may not have the means to just up and move. They may be tied down by a job they can't afford to quit, family that needs their help, etc. Be careful about falling into the trap of only being able to relate based on your own set of circumstances. I see a lot of arguments on the conservative side that seem to reflect a rather narrow world view. The truth is, although it is the ideal this country strives for, not everyone is afforded the same opportunities. Conservatives tend to brush aside this fact while liberals will argue that the playing field needs to be leveled.

I hate this argument.

How badly do you want to improve your situation? That's the question people need to ask themselves.

Edited December 10, 2012 by one

[ExBoneOSO]

This should explain everything...

[Buddy Spike]

This was the same topic we had in the Election thread. Rainman and others talked about how people that lived below the poverty line should move to find better jobs instead of getting government handouts... If poor people should move to find work, I think the middle class can find a way to move if they really hate their states taxes that much. If the taxes are really that horrible then move. My point is, the taxes are not even close to being that bad.

Quotes about people on welfare moving to find jobs...

Moving to find a job is not the same as having a job and moving to escape high taxes. Don't be dense.

[Guest one]

I know it is not the same. One person has almost no money and the other is middle class. If you think someone that is working a minimum wage job and receiving some government aid should move to find a better job you must also think that someone that makes the median income can afford to move out of the state to avoid taxes. Moving to avoid taxes is ridiculous because it never happens. How bad do people want to avoid those taxes? I am saying that no one would actually move because the taxes are not really that bad. People just like to complain about taxes.

I don't mind taxes as long as there is not a ton of waste and fraud. The problem is waste and fraud is running rampant. If you can see what you are getting from the taxes, you are less likely to mind.

Edited December 10, 2012 by one

[Guest]

It appears that your mind is simply incapable of separating government policies and private sector basic Adam Smith economic principles.

You are mixing things together that are unrelated and out of context with one another.

It's like you're standing up at Red Flag and saying...

"If you don't like the min range AIM-120 parameters you shouldn't go to the tanker. You can either go to the tanker or shop at the BX but Burger King is closed after 1700 so the abort for the MK-82HD deliveries is for fuze. Any questions?"

Stop.

[BlackKnight]

It's like you're standing up at Red Flag and saying...

"If you don't like the min range AIM-120 parameters you shouldn't go to the tanker. You can either go to the tanker or shop at the BX but Burger King is closed after 1700 so the abort for the MK-82HD deliveries is for fuze. Any questions?"

Is it bad that all that made perfect sense to me?

Except for the part about abort and the MK-82HD. I have no idea what that means (anymore). I can spell JDAM though.

[Butters]

After reading this I have come to realize that I was wrong. I used to think Democrats were fucking stupid, you know like Tim Tebow stupid. However, it turns out Democrats are actually really smart. It is the people that vote for Democrats that are stupid, and the Democrats know this. As you can see people who vote democrat know absolutely nothing about economics. So, Democratic candidates and make ridiculous economic decisions and the stupid people will still vote for them.

Now, the republicans have figured out that democratic votes are dumb as hell and are capitalizing on it…. And the Democrats don’t like this one bit. WTF am I talking about? Labor Laws! Seems very few people in this country know dick about labor laws. So, some Republican Governors in “Blue States” are successfully passing “Right to work” legislation and you have the President telling all the dumb fucks out there they are trying to strip you of your collective bargaining rights!!! Can some please explain to me how ”right to work” legislation strips you of your collective bargaining rights???

[Fuzz]

Can some please explain to me how ”right to work” legislation strips you of your collective bargaining rights???

You don't know much about the subject I take it? (like at all)

[Butters]

You don't know much about the subject I take it? (like at all)

I actually know a lot. But I guess you are saying giving some the right to get a job without being forced to pay union dues strlrips everyone of their collective bargains rights.

You are malking my point.

[Fuzz]

I actually know a lot. But I guess you are saying giving some the right to get a job without being forced to pay union dues strlrips everyone of their collective bargains rights.

You are malking my point.

Ok your post makes more sense now.

I know in Wisconsin, the bill that was passed limited collective bargaining to just wages. However "right-to-work" doesn't necessarily prohibit collective bargaining, it just means that unions can make "closed shops" and require membership and payment of dues as a condition to work. Therefore, they loose the ability to control 100% of the workers. So now new people get hired or existing employees choose not to renew their membership, the percentage of union employees decreases and the effect of a strike diminishes. Most cases I have seen when membership is no longer required people bail like rats on a sinking ship, also the reason you don't see Unions in the south where there is right to work.

[HoHum]

A good place to start cost-cutting

[Guest]

Makes me want to puke.

[Vertigo]

Ugh. Mitch McConnell filibusters his own bill to lift the debt ceiling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGo8E3shaIQ

Edited December 12, 2012 by Vertigo

[Guest]

Ugh.

What part of this don't you like? He doesn't want a vote because he doesn't think it will pass.

[Guest one]

Then let it not pass. He proposed the vote in the first place. You really don't see how this was an unproductive move by McConnell?

[Vertigo]

What part of this don't you like? He doesn't want a vote because he doesn't think it will pass.

He called for a vote on his bill, then when told he would be given a vote he wanted to change the rules so that it would only pass with 60 votes (not the 51 needed). The reason he did this is because they DID have the votes to pass his bill, but now he wants to filibuster it because the Dems want it.

This is the kind of bullshit that goes on in D.C. that leads us to being in the situation we're in and why Congress' approval rating is in the toilet.

Skip to 00:30

Edited December 12, 2012 by Vertigo

[Guest one]

Reid should have reluctantly agreed to the 60 votes just to put McConnell in the awkward situation of not only starting a filibuster against his own bill but voting against it as well. It would have taken away even more credibility from him.

What is going on with the Republican Party?

[disgruntledemployee]

Reid should have reluctantly agreed to the 60 votes just to put McConnell in the awkward situation of not only starting a filibuster against his own bill but voting against it as well. It would have taken away even more credibility from him.

What is going on with the Republican Party Congress?

FIFY

Just a bunch of narcissistic prima donnas.

Out

[Guest one]

FIFY

Just a bunch of narcissistic prima donnas.

Out

The House of Representatives is on whole other level of dysfunction. You expect more from the Senate because most of these guys have been in politics for decades…Maybe that is the problem.

I am not trying to be overly critical of the Republican Party but since the Tea Party started ######ing everything up, the Republican Party has no clear direction besides opposing Democrats. Some good ideas are coming out of the Republican Party but they are not getting anything done. McConnell should have not backed down. He should have stood by what he proposed and start moving forward.

Even Rand Paul thinks that Republicans should let the Democrats have what they want. Republicans can just vote present and let the Democrats do their damage. The pendulum will swing back and the Republican Party will have a much easier time getting support to make the cuts they want while eventually lower taxes as the economy improves. This will also likely help Republicans in 2014 and 2016.

Edited to remove errors

Edited December 12, 2012 by one

[HU&W]

Do you mean Senate?

Congress is a whole other level of dysfunction. You expect more from the Senate because most of these guys have been in politics for decades…Maybe that is the problem.

I am not trying to be overly critical of the Republican Party but since the Tea Party started ######ing everything up, the Republican Party has no clear direction besides opposing Democrats. Some good ideas are coming out of the Republican Party but they are not getting anything done. McConnell should have not backed down. He should have stood by what he proposed and start moving forward.

Even Rand Paul thinks that Republicans should let the Democrats have what they want. Republicans can just vote present and let the Democrats do their damage. The pendulum will swing back and the Republican Party will have a much easier time getting support to make the cuts they want while eventually lower taxes as the economy improves. This will also likely help Republicans in 2014 and 2016.

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