Retirement / Separation Considerations

[brabus]

Set a DOS immediately and hope it is registered in the AFPC system prior to you receiving an email. Had a friend in a similar situation - he didn’t have a cranium’s up like you, just so happened he set his DOS a few days prior to receiving the deployment notification. They initially said he had to go, but he immediately got out of it when he pointed out there was a DOS in the system that was prior to the date he would return from the deployment. 

[HeloDude]

1 hour ago, sixpack said:

Can anyone verify if I turn down this deployment I can still be forced to go regardless of extending past my ADSC?  CC told me that today however he didn't know the reg.  Separations folks were worthless talking to them today.  Further I still don't have any email notification of this deployment.  

I know that the AF changed their policy of 3-day opt out of a 365 for those eligible to retire.  Before a few years ago you could turn down 365 orders and retire if you were past 20 or the deployment would take you past 20...however they changed the regs and now if you do not have a set retirement date the AF can force you to go on your 365 if you want to retire (I personally know someone who had this happen).

As far as your shorter deployment, I think they can make you go since you don't have an established separation date.  Concur with Brabus: Put in for separation ASAP and hope it gets approved to keep you from going.  Best of luck and please keep us in the loop of how it turns out.

[sixpack]

Thanks all for the help.  Much better than anything I can get on base.

[DirtyFlightSuit]

10 minutes ago, sixpack said:

Thanks all for the help.  Much better than anything I can get on base.

A wet fart is much better than anything you could get with support agencies at most base so at least you don't have to feel shafted compared to your peers ;D

 

[pelexecute]

On 7/11/2018 at 6:57 PM, NKAWTG said:

You're now in between a rock and a hard place.  Like everyone's said, let the CC know that you'll punch if told to go.  He can make you follow through, and give it to someone else.  Or he can let you stay, and give it to someone else.  So the CC gets to decide if he wants to lose two or more FGOs or just one.  I doubt you'll be popular with the base leadership in either case. 

 

As an aside, last dude I talked to who did the air advisor gig said they retired four Lt Cols before they replaced him.  

Similar thing happened to me a couple of years ago. Apparently everyone before me had dwell time or a good excuse that the CC believed, so he said I’ve been picked, and I leave next week. I informed him that I have no ADSC and will be going right now to separate (before an official notification), and I was at 18 yrs then. When I informed him that there are many dudes that have an ADSC and couldn’t say no, it was like he had never thought about that concept. Don’t assume your CC knows anything about the regs. Other replies are correct, 179’s are totally up to the wing CC. 

[sixpack]

10 minutes ago, pelexecute said:

Similar thing happened to me a couple of years ago. Apparently everyone before me had dwell time or a good excuse that the CC believed, so he said I’ve been picked, and I leave next week. I informed him that I have no ADSC and will be going right now to separate (before an official notification), and I was at 18 yrs then. When I informed him that there are many dudes that have an ADSC and couldn’t say no, it was like he had never thought about that concept. Don’t assume your CC knows anything about the regs. Other replies are correct, 179’s are totally up to the wing CC. 

I wished my leadership was that forgiving but i've already been told in no uncertain terms that the OG will not deal with terrorists and the orders will stick.  They're forcing my hand regardless of my wishes.   

[HossHarris]

Vote with your feet!

[di1630]

If I return from Overseas, am I correct that they can’t send me on a 365 until a year after I get back?

[Chuck17]

5 hours ago, sixpack said:

I wished my leadership was that forgiving but i've already been told in no uncertain terms that the OG will not deal with terrorists and the orders will stick.  They're forcing my hand regardless of my wishes.   

If you don’t mind the ask, which wing are we talking about here?

Chuck

[Hunter Rose]

7 hours ago, HeloDude said:

I know that the AF changed their policy of 3-day opt out of a 365 for those eligible to retire.  Before a few years ago you could turn down 365 orders and retire if you were past 20 or the deployment would take you past 20...however they changed the regs and now if you do not have a set retirement date the AF can force you to go on your 365 if you want to retire (I personally know someone who had this happen).

As far as your shorter deployment, I think they can make you go since you don't have an established separation date.  Concur with Brabus: Put in for separation ASAP and hope it gets approved to keep you from going.  Best of luck and please keep us in the loop of how it turns out.

Where are you getting this from?   Got a reference?

I reviewed the active duty separations/retirement reg a week ago since my ADSC expired and was curious about my options. It still has all the 7-day opt verbiage for assignments as well as deployments.   All the verbiage was still there that if the planned deployment days plus 30 takes you past 20 years you can establish a separation date in lieu of deploying. 

I’m not saying you are wrong (it wouldn’t be the first time big AF ignored what the regs actually said or maybe there is some other AFI I missed) but what you are saying does not agree with what I read in the AFIs .  

 

Edited July 13, 2018 by Hunter Rose

[Hunter Rose]

Personally, I’ve grown tired of the “not deal with terrorists” line from leadership and AFPC. 

Maybe if they dealt with “terrorists” a little, we wouldn’t be 2K pilots short. 

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, Hunter Rose said:

Where are you getting this from?   Got a reference?

I reviewed the active duty separations/retirement reg a week ago since my ADSC expired and was curious about my options. It still has all the 7-day opt verbiage for assignments as well as deployments.   All the verbiage was still there that if the planned deployment days plus 30 takes you past 20 years you can establish a separation date in lieu of deploying. 

I’m not saying you are wrong (it wouldn’t be the first time big AF ignored what the regs actually said or maybe there is some other AFI I missed) but what you are saying does not agree with what I read in the AFIs .  

 

From way back in 2015: Air Force invokes stop loss in retirement change.

 

Quote

That footnote says that for those deploying airmen, "The SecAF [secretary of the Air Force] or designee may suspend retirement of Active Component officers and certain Reserve officers projected to retire on their [mandatory separation date] ... in accordance with ... 10 USC 123 or 12305 (Stop Loss)." It also says the secretary can't prohibit or suspend mandatory retirements beyond the mandatory separation date, except in special circumstances.

Basically, they updated the regulation to allow the Air Force to deny you a retirement until you get back from your tasked deployment.  You can still separate...they just won't pay your retirement.

[Homestar]

6 hours ago, di1630 said:

If I return from Overseas, am I correct that they can’t send me on a 365 until a year after I get back?

Lots of 365s have a minimum time on station note but I’ve never heard anything specifically related to returning from a non-remote OCONUS tour. 

[Hunter Rose]

3 hours ago, pawnman said:

From way back in 2015: Air Force invokes stop loss in retirement change.

 

Basically, they updated the regulation to allow the Air Force to deny you a retirement until you get back from your tasked deployment.  You can still separate...they just won't pay your retirement.

So read the regs again. Confirmed my view that Personnelists/A1 are blood sucking scum who deserve public beatings. Thanks for making me learn something.

The retirement reg AFI 36-3203 refers you to 7-Day/3-Day Opt Out rules in AFI 36-2110..  

It seems having 19 years TAFMS as of the mo/year of the ASD Assignment Selection Date  is the kicker (not your official notification date).  If you have 19 yrs TAFMS as of ASD you can 3-day opt out of the 365 and apply for retirement.  If less then 19 yrs TAFMS you can 3-day opt out but only apply for separation. Same thing for PCS selection, but then it's 7-day opt out rules.

So basically AF can select you for a PCS that incurs a 2-year ADSC at 17 yrs 11 mo TAFMS and your options ar to separate and get no retirement or accept the PCS (and an extra 1 to 1.5 yrs of service) to get a retirement.  

So basically the AF owns your ass until the day you hit 19 yrs TAFMS. Bastards.

[HeloDude]

1 hour ago, Hunter Rose said:

So read the regs again. Confirmed my view that Personnelists/A1 are blood sucking scum who deserve public beatings. Thanks for making me learn something.

The retirement reg AFI 36-3203 refers you to 7-Day/3-Day Opt Out rules in AFI 36-2110..  

It seems having 19 years TAFMS as of the mo/year of the ASD Assignment Selection Date  is the kicker (not your official notification date).  If you have 19 yrs TAFMS as of ASD you can 3-day opt out of the 365 and apply for retirement.  If less then 19 yrs TAFMS you can 3-day opt out but only apply for separation. Same thing for PCS selection, but then it's 7-day opt out rules.

So basically AF can select you for a PCS that incurs a 2-year ADSC at 17 yrs 11 mo TAFMS and your options ar to separate and get no retirement or accept the PCS (and an extra 1 to 1.5 yrs of service) to get a retirement.  

So basically the AF owns your ass until the day you hit 19 yrs TAFMS. Bastards.

No...you're still incorrect.  Pawnman was correct--if you don't have an APPROVED retirement date then AFPC can still send you on a 365 even after you hit 20...unless you want to seperate and not retire.  I personally know someone who was affected by this and this is why a bunch of line pilots I know now.  are planning on applying for retirement as soon as they're eligible...and a couple of them aren't even planning on going to the airlines.

Not saying I'm a fan of the rule change but I'm just wanting others to know what's going on.

[sixpack]

So i'm pretty much screwed at this point.  Even if i apply for separation that could end up getting denied and I am sent anyways.  Seems almost criminal they can hold you against your will past any ADSC you have.  

[HeloDude]

28 minutes ago, sixpack said:

So i'm pretty much screwed at this point.  Even if i apply for separation that could end up getting denied and I am sent anyways.  Seems almost criminal they can hold you against your will past any ADSC you have.  

You have always had to apply for separation...this is nothing new.  Hence why you will be AWOL if you're no longer under an ADSC and stopped coming to work.  

To play devil's advocate--if you wanted out so badly then why didn't you apply for separation at your earliest chance?  There are very few things I'll defend Big Blue on when it comes to new regs/policies, and I'm definitely not a supporter of more deployments (I think the US should be less involved in the world, not more)...but all that being said, I'm not a fan of people staying in past their commitment and then also complaining of having to deploy when they're called up.  Just because you're eligible for separation or retirement doesn't mean you don't have to do your job.  Now if you believe you were unfairly targeted for the deployment (i.e. not given dwell time, handed the deployment when someone else was due for it, etc) then I'm definitely all ears...but that has nothing to do with being given deployment orders while you're still AD.

Knowledge is power--know the regs and make sure they work for you.

[Hunter Rose]

2 hours ago, HeloDude said:

No...you're still incorrect.  Pawnman was correct--if you don't have an APPROVED retirement date then AFPC can still send you on a 365 even after you hit 20...unless you want to separate and not retire.  I personally know someone who was affected by this...

Your bro may have been screwed in the past, but that is not what the current AFI 31- 2110 says.

As of 26 Jan 18, Table 5.2.  365-day Extended Deployment Declinations/3-Day Options states if you have 19 yrs TAFMS as of notification date or RDD of a 365 you may request a retirement and opt out of the 365.

AFPC could deny your retirement request and send you on the 365  but you are not getting separated instead of retired.   After 19 yrs TAFMS your two options are establish a retirement date or AFPC denies your retirement request and deploys you.  

If you have less than 19 yrs TAFMS as of notification date or RDD of the 365, you may request separation and if approved would not get a retirement.

(Forgive me I quoted above Figure 5.2 instead of Table 5.2 that replaced it.)

 

As for getting out as soon as you can no argument there.  Bottom line, until you have an established retirement date the power to let you retire or deploy you is still the AF's decision.

Edited July 13, 2018 by Hunter Rose

[HeloDude]

2 minutes ago, Hunter Rose said:

Your bro may have been screwed in the past, but that is not what the current AFI 31- 2110 says. 

As of 26 Jan 18, Table 5.2.  365-day Extended Deployment Declinations/3-Day Options states if you have 19 yrs TAFMS as of notification date OR RDD of a 365 you may request a retirement and opt out of the 365.

Theoretically AFPC could deny your retirement request and send you on the 365 since you are not guaranteed retirement approval, but you are not getting separated.   After 19 yrs TAFMS your two options are retirement or AFPC deniers your retirement request and deploys you.  

 

Fair enough...the reg was updated/changed and I wasn't aware and was wrong.  Thanks for the correction.

[NKAWTG]

Curious how splitting the 365s will effect who goes.  Before it was the short tour return dates, and you knew that if stuck around past 18 years you were hot for one.  Now I imagine the MAJCOMs will share them out to the bases based on magic formula and the wing kings get to pick who goes.  They did that before, but now it will be in far greater numbers.  If you're FGO and not part of the leadership plan at a base, you know your purpose in life. 

[FUSEPLUG]

On 7/11/2018 at 10:46 PM, Craftsman said:

Fail a pt test.

Worth repeating. Delta won’t ask to see your PT scores. 

[Azimuth]

11 hours ago, sixpack said:

So i'm pretty much screwed at this point.  Even if i apply for separation that could end up getting denied and I am sent anyways.  Seems almost criminal they can hold you against your will past any ADSC you have.  

They can Court Martial you if you’re retired. The Marines just ops checked that theory. It is criminal the authority they have.

[Smokin]

di1630, you're probably confusing a remote with a normal overseas tour.  Coming back from a remote, you're invincible for 6 months.  At least, that's how it was when I did mine anyway, squadron tried to send me on an individual 179 after only two months in the squadron and I said they couldn't send me unless I was a volunteer and no way was I going to volunteer.

 

sixpack - apply for a separation ASAP.  Mine was approved very quickly.  Also, find the assignment reg and find what starts your 3 day hack.  I'm not sure that a phone call from a commander cuts it these days with everything being virtual.

[di1630]

di1630, you're probably confusing a remote with a normal overseas tour. 

 

Thanks. I have plenty of deployment recency but my STRD is waaaay old.

 

Any 11F’s know the forecast for 365’s? I heard via rumor they were being reduced and mainly only for cc’s. Truth?

 

I have a 14 month window where if I’m tagged, I can’t say no. After that I can 3 day opt. Damn bonus adsc.

 

 

[di1630]

Is RDD (req delivery date) and RNLT the same thing?

5.3 says you need 12 months TOS after first training or RDD to be eligible for a 365....