Air Battle Manager (ABM) info

[Bishop]

What bases do you possibly have, and what possible Airframes. What is the possiblity of ABM's being phased out in the near future, any otehr info, is appreciated, I understand they get flight pay as well, and its a 6 year commitment right? Thanks

[Guest deweygcc]

ABMs wont go away for awhile. They are giving bonuses and I think its 4 or 8.

[Guest AWACker]

The two main airframes for the ABMers are the E-3 and the E-8. AWACS and JSTARS. Tinker and Robins. They get flight pay as well, but don't ask me if I think they deserve it.

[Bergman]

Are the E-3s in Kadena and Elmendorf just detachments from the wing at Tinker then? I know Offutt works that way, so it'd make sense that the other ISR folks would as well. Of course, just because it would make sense doesn't necessarily mean the AF would do it..but I digress...

[Guest RoninCo]

The E-3s in Kadena and Elmendorf are separate squadrons, not detachments. Robins is the only base for JSTARS. Elmo, Kadena, Tinker, and Gilenkirchen (sp?) [NATO E-3s] are the AWACS bases. I dont think that the "GOATS" will be going away anytime soon. Yes, it is a 6 year commitment initially. Also, I dont know of any bonus for them yet (though i could be wrong). Their "bonus" was the AF making them rated and giving them most of the priveleges of pilots IMHO.

-RoninCO

[Guest deweygcc]

Navs get ACP If they can balance on their little toe while skipping a flaming rope. They must do this for 8+

ABMs get it after 3-4 years I THOUGHT.

Why isnt the Nav considered a goat? The wack pilot I last spoke to said he/she was a crewmember but whats the reason:

Joke

C-130 crew is TDY and the Loadmaster walk out of the bar for some air and finds a little kid making something. He notices there is the smell of sh!t and asks the boy what he is making. The boy replies " Im making a Navigator" Load asks "out of shit?" "yup" . The load is beside himself and thinks " man i gotta go tell the pilot. SO he does and the pilots come running out to hear the little boy tell them he is making the Nav outa crap. The AC, tears of laughter streaming down his face, tells the Co to get the nav. The Nav, who figures something is up, walks to the kid. The co fresh outa slick school, giggles like a little kid says, " ask him what hes making, ask him"

The Nav asks and the little boy says " making a Nav outa shit" The Nav turns red and says " now why would you make a nav outa shit?" They little boy replies " well, I didnt have enough crap to make a pilot"

[Guest AWACker]

Originally posted by deweygcc:

Navs get ACP If they can balance on their little toe while skipping a flaming rope. They must do this for 8+

ABMs get it after 3-4 years I THOUGHT.

Why isnt the Nav considered a goat? The wack pilot I last spoke to said he/she was a crewmember but whats the reason?

A Nav isn't considered a goat for many reasons. The most simple reason is that the most basic way to socially slice a crew is to call part of the crew the "Flight Deck" (A/C, copilot, Nav, FE), and the rest of the crew the "Mission Crew" (CT, CSO, CDMT, AWO, WD, SD, MCC, ECO, AST, SST, ASO, ART) Yes, sadly enough, I didn't make up any positions on the plane in that listing, and I even left out one or two. Mission Crew are goats. Flight deck is...well...flight deck. You'll get some of the goats that just don't want to be considered goats, and they'll try and adjust that social dynamic accordingly, "Hey, I'm comm, so I'm really part of flight deck!!" (not true). And, "Techs aren't goats, only the Weapons guys are goats!" (Again, using the biggest brush, they're all goats).

Navs are directly involved with the "flying" portion of what we do. They've got a seat with a view of the (relatively) big windows up front, and hence, they're flight deck. They're also all part of A-Flight, but that's a social dynamic in AWACS that would take a serious diatribe to discuss...and it would contain some serious goat-bashing. But, to make it simple...in other planes, where you've got 5 people on the crew, including like, a flying crew chief, or just a pilot or pilot and WSO in a fighter, there's just no need to make such a distinction between "who's flying the plane, and who isn't". In a plane with 30-35 people on the aircrew orders, and an MCC (Mission Crew Commander) who wants to lay down the law to even the Aircraft Commander (those battles happen way too often), a distinction between the "flight" and the "mission" is a must.

[Guest AWACker]

Uh...I was trying to be serious for most of that...heh.

And no, not all ABMers, 13Bravos, scope dopes, right-turners, carbon-based temperature/smoke/pressurization detectors, self-loading baggage, or goats fly. But you'll know it if you've got 'em. Imagine...Pax with an intercom...ugh. The rest do tours on the ground, but eventually, they all seem to end up in the back of the plane.

And, for a self-serving AWACS plug...AWACS humor can be found at www.AWACker.com. The cartoons are decent, but the message board is a little weak.

[ 28. July 2004, 00:40: Message edited by: AWACker ]

[Whitman]

Can anyone shed some light on the ABM selection process? Medical requirements, board dates, competitiveness??? I haven't heard much about ABM and was wondering what exactly they do other than chill in the back of the awac/jstar. What part of their job justifies the rated status they have? Deployment cycle? Length/location of ABM school? thanks

[Guest IHTFP2003]

It is easy to get selected for ABM.. all you need is a Class III medical.

They are glorified Air Traffic Controllers in the back of an AWACS, and in a JSTARS they help coordinate ground attacs and monitor troop movements.

They deploy a lot, it has been about 200-250 days a year for the past number of years. They are trying to change that, but I don't see it happening.

They are rated, because (in my opinion) the job sux and they need to get extra pay for doing it.

ABM school is at Tyndall, AFB and lasts 9 months.. I am currently here in training and I can tell you that it is a fairly easy course..

[Mambo]

IHTFP2003...just a few notes to add on your post...since returning from the desert AWACS guys haven't deployed, although I'm sure they are looking for somewhere to go. Must be getting bored sitting in Tinker all this time. May be different for the JSTARS guys. I wouldn't call the AWACS guys glorified ATC exactly. That's like calling JSTARS guys traffic patrol. They do learn alot of tactics and I haven't seen an ATC guy control an LFE with 16 to 20 fighters, run CSARS, tanker control and TST's. By the way...if the job sucks...why are you doing it?

[Guest pilothoper]

Does anybody know the medical requirements for ABM? Do you need a class 1 physical? Do you go to Brooks for MFS? Vision?

[Guest IHTFP2003]

class III

[Guest smweinbrenner]

I am currently processed to be evaluted on the October 2008 boards for rated. I chose ABM 1st, Nav Second. My scores were good enough nor flight hours to be a pilot likely. But when you think about it ABM seems like one of the best jobs in the air force. I am just making that assumption based on what I've read based on its description.

Is there any reason why I should reconsider my thoughts on ABM?

Anyone here know a lot about it, or was one?

I'm excited and sincerely hope I get selected for ABM.

[Ill Destructor]

Should you reconsider? Absolutely not. Leave the flying to those with the passion for it. Not to knock on your desire to be an ABM... My experience is that most pilots know they want to be pilots. If you don't know that, then you probably don't. Yes, I'm painting with a broad brush, but I think you see my point.

Good luck with the boards, dude.

[sigmanugary]

To the OP

Being an ABM is fun, we do fly, we are rated officers thus if you look long term alot(not all) of the glass ceiling that was over our head is removed (opportunities in the long run ie command), and we can work in a variety of areas from air defense to jumping outta planes with Army guys being their airpower go to guy(ALO). We have a niche career field that is relitively small and that has its pros and cons. On the plus side we #1 fly, #2 are in ops, #3 have a variety of paths/ functions we fill on both the E-3 and E-8. The cons are currently we are limited to those two jets(not that either are bad but little variety), and our ABM bros can be VERY cut-throat. This stems from...well hell I don't exactly know I'm just spreading the word. While the vast majority of our guys(and girls) are great there are some that are shady where this gets sporty is that our flying assignments are relitively limited so that asshole you knew as a fellow Lt might be a coworker at the next base as a fellow Capt and so on. Don't let this turn you off its not that bad just remember you heard it from me first. All in all, there are few other flying jobs in the AF that sound more fun than mine (being a bomber dude or being on an EWO...both have always sounded cool to me). Also, you'll have an important job and if you F'up a mission you'll hear about it (nothing like a pissed-off Lt Col ripping into an AWO!) but that goes with having an important job so don't F' up!

I hope you get picked up as an ABM if not I hope you just get picked up period. Just know as a rated officer in training you'll have alot of studying and training to do and a crap load of schools/ courses Also as a 2nd Lt in training(keep in mind your training will last YEARS not months) you'll be treated like a first grader...but I guess I shouldn't let you in on ALL the secrets!

Edited September 19, 2008 by sigmanugary

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

Enough BS here, already. Being an ABM is like being corn-holed w/ no butter - not the job, but the path. While I do agree that it is a rated position, your "leadership" and "command" experience are EXTREMELY limited in capacity...i.e. you only see ABMers "command" at non-judicial bases - you know, the one's with no "real" mission, per se. Not saying that pilots are king, it's just a fact that rated guys - and pilots in general - are the one's who are leading the AF. Now, if you wanna drink the blue Kool-Aid, by all means do so - however, I will venture to say that I have NEVER seen a bio of a 2-Star or higher who was or is a current ABMer.

I admire anyone who puts on the suit, and I admire you for not trying for something that you are not positive you want to pursue. However, make no mistake about it - ABMers, are NOT "the ones in control and give the commands." Sure, I do give the fact that they are the eyes over the sky and give good info, but, honestly, when the preverbial shit hits the fan, it's the pilot (or pilot in COMMAND) who will make the ultimate decision on where he is putting his airplane. As Fogo stated, when they start pointing w/ their elbows and state "when I gave this guy his BRAA, I got the thousand yard stare..." Horseshit! I have ROTC "peers" who are now ABMers and they hate the day they signed up for it...just think, Tinker or Robins....hmmm, flip a coin? Died or Died? Hmmm - flip a double sided coin.

It sems to me like Fogo has the "big" picture as he is out there in the SWA pushing the ops - PM that dude. The other guy sounds like he's running the snack bar at an AETC base?

Scope Monkey???

I don't know enough about the actual job to give insight, however, my pals w/ the crushed cap know all about it. However, as long as you are in the OPS world, thats where you want to be!

Good luck.

Edited September 19, 2008 by C-21 Pilot

[brickhistory]

ABM above two-star? Not yet. Likely? One day, sure. KTIk had (has?) an ABM WG/CC. There are numerous ABM squadron commanders flying and ground control units.

The comparison of pilots to ABMs for GO doesn't exactly hold as the percentages of each as a measure of the USAF officer corps is very skewed.

Me, I like to believe it's the officer not his rating that makes the rank. However, your point is valid. Only been a few non-rated four stars despite there actually having been some good ones (not all are shoes.)

However, it is the Air Force. If you know the basic rules going in, b1tching about it doesn't help.

Besides flying E-3s and E-8s, there are also the ACS - Air Control Squadrons and the Sectors (ANG though). I had the best time of my mediocre career at an ACS. Finally got to be a leader not just a technician - scope dope or pilot, doing the job is a technician's bit not a leader per se. I volunteered for ALO duty but that was before ABMs (weapons controllers in the day) were 'rated,' thus I was turned down. Pity, would've been fun.

Also, as was pointed out above, ABMs, except in rare instances, don't 'command' the air battle. There have been ABM mission commanders.

However, in flying E-3s and E-8s, note that those are coded as 'combat support.' Act accordingly.

Finally, coke bottle glasses from early on were my windmill. I would have like to have had a shot at being a USAF pilot, but that wasn't in the cards nor do I know if I would have made it. However, you don't have to be a pilot to contribute to the mission. Just don't take yourself (or 'them') so seriously.

Controlling is an art - I was pretty competant but there are some who are one with the radar and can be freakin' awesome at adding SA to a fight. Others can be huge SA leeches and suck it right out (sts).

Good luck.

[afnav]

Many, many years ago, there were these slots for pre-commissionees: pilot, nav, missile, non-rated ops, technical, non-technical.

I was given a missile slot, but on my dream sheet, there was a block that you could check to volunteer for '17XX duties'. This is one of the non-rated ops career fields, including the 19XX abortion that only lasted a year or two under Skeletor.

I flew E-3s for almost five years as a nav. Unlike most of my flight deck comrades, I had a number of 'goat' friends that 'turned right at the entry door', and they were great people. I made a serious effort to learn as much about their mission as I could, and it paid off. I had an orbit area in OSW named after me (yep, it was in the ATO/ACO) and was assigned to MacDill as a DO for a couple of months because the commander (an MCC) really liked me. I had as many ABMs (American and Canadian) at my wedding as I had rated guys. I miss them to this day.

If I was young, I would definitely choose ABM after nav on my dream sheet. Their star was rising eight years ago when I left AWACS, and now that they are rated officers, it can only get better.

[drewpey]

Me, I like to believe it's the officer not his rating that makes the rank.

QFE.

Here's the thing...if you look at the actual statistics of how many pilots actually made leadership positions (IE sq. CC and above) the number is minimal...as it is for any crew position. True, it's more statistically probable as a pilot, but that doesn't mean you will be better/worse as one.

Don't choose a job based on it's projected future, choose a job in which you will enjoy yourself and determine your own future.

Jesus, I sound like a rucking fecruiter. One more bartender!

[Guest EN_GRAD]

The descriptions online seem slightly different.

Dude, don't base a damn thing off AF job descriptions online. Even when I was enlisted, the recruiter had a binder full of "official" job descriptions to help guys pick their careers. It even made flipping burgers in the chow hall or checking ID cards at the gate seem like they were the best jobs in the world. It's all a bunch of fluff and bullshit. Talk to guys who do the job for the best idea of what to expect.

[abmwaldo]

I wrote this response to someone on this board awhile back and I'll try to update it based on this thread's contents.

Well I'll hit the positives first and then talk about the negatives:

1. You're flight crew, which is good if your eyes aren't good enough for pilot or nav as mine weren't.

2. While not being a "pointy nose" guy you get to work with them on a regular basis and actually be part of the combat Air Force.

3. If you were to go JSTARS or go to a CRC (think AWACS on the ground) you will get to deploy, alot. Also we're allowed to take ALO (Air Liason Officer) slots now so that's an interesting opportunity to live and work with the Army if that's your gig. AWACS is also deploying to the AOR although it's not quite the role one would like being a controller. There are also jobs, not deploying on an E-3/E-8 which are available (I'm deploying to Balad in March and flying in a C-130.)

4. With the F-22A/F-35 coming online our operational role is currently evolving. Air Weapons Officers are moving away from being controllers and aiding Eagles and vipers to stay on radar timelines to being "battle managers." We WILL make our money on being the operators/maintainers of JTIDS. The amount of information I can gather from JTIDS and use to manage a battle is amazing. For evidence of this new role look into the NORTHERN EDGE exercises.

5. Working on a "crewed" aircraft. While I've never been a single seat guy I have to say working on a crewed aircraft is a pretty awesome experience. When you go TDY you are sure to go TDY with some of your friends.

Ok and now for the things I personally don't like:

1. Overcrowding in the AWO (introductory ABM position) career field. As I'm sure you're hearing there are RIF boards about and AWOs are/were overmanned. This is especially a problem at Tinker where some squadrons are 200% overmanned. This leads to a problem of being able to stay CMR (Combat Mission Ready) and having to fight your friends for flying hours. Again this is being "force shaped" but it's still a current problem.

1.a. This entire lack of flying hours and overcrowding leads to folks being upgraded before they're ready to at Tinker. I've got a little over 500 hours as a controller and I'm just now upgrading; at sTinker controllers with 100 hours or so get upgraded. Not to say that my 500 hours make me better than the folks at Tinker but if you look at the major exercises I've controlled in (1x NORTHERN EDGE, 3x RED FLAG AK, 1x COPE TIGER, 1x FOAL EAGLE, 1x MAPLE FLAG) I've been exposed to more than most evaluators at Tinker. Most folks at Tinker get a deployment to the AOR or Ecuador (until we get kicked out) and maybe a RED FLAG in a given year. I think this is where most people who have a bad opinion of AWACS get it from; the folks controlling them are mostly brand new and no one experienced to debrief them when they dick it away.

1.b. Lack of interaction/integration with those we control. Being based at Tinker may keep the maintenance backshop all in one place but it definitely hinders learning. Tinker AWACS controllers rarely ever get the kind of debriefings I've had up here at Elmo. I brief with the pilots I'm controlling, control and then get to debrief with them. I learn where I need to shut my piehole and when I need to speak up from firsthand experience. A fix with this would be to TDY a jet or two with a couple of crews to Langley and Mt Home on a regular basis. Give the crews a chance to learn how to integrate with those who "buy" our control. In the same vein, when you receive AWACS control and the controller calls you and tries to get a debrief don't scoff it off with the standard "good job." Take the time to get on a STE/STU and give a full up debrief or at a minimum get a DFP or two and pass those along to the controller.

2. Gay requirements. No not the once a year "homosexual training" but the million training requirements that must be met because people at Tinker have nothing better to do than to make this stuff up to give them something to do. The shit rolls downhill or uphill to get to Alaska and we get all the requirements as well. This is something that I'm sure that isn't specifically limited to AWACS but you get the picture.

3. Working with an outdated system. The computer on the AWACS was designed and built in the late 1960s. It's gone through various upgrades but the basics are still there. Our video card weighs HALF A TON, and we have TWO of them on the jet. You have to learn a new "language" in order to manipulate the system (think DOS programming) to get it to do what you want. Dont' let it seem like you need a computer engineering degree to do this because I don't have one and the air force will train you up well. There are planned upgrades that will use more off the shelf technology but those keep getting funding cut from them and the date currently stands somewhere around 2014.

4. Choice of basing, at least initially. You WILL go to the schoolhouse at Tyndall AFB. If you get selected for AWACS (and 70% of studs do) you will then move to one of 4 bases. Tinker in OKC (the mothership), Kadena AB in Okinawa, Elmendorf AFB in Alaska or Geinleinkirchen AB in Germany. Good and bad things about all of them but the 3 overseas bases are VERY competitive and only about 10% of the students coming out of UABMT get one of those. 20% of your class will go to JSTARS which is based at Warner Robins GA. That's the only base for them so if you don't like GA then probably don't want to go do that. No one is getting assigned to a ground unit straight out of the schoolhouse anymore because since we became rated officers we need to maintain "gate hours" with flying so everyone must go to a flying unit first. Ground units are based here in the states (a couple of places) and a couple of places in Europe or you can go to Korea.

We do have a 1 star currently BGen Lori "Law" Robinson, at ACC, and the Wing/CC at KTIK is a 13B as well.

Edited September 21, 2008 by abmwaldo

[abmwaldo]

As a controller I do very little to operate JTIDS but there is one crew position on the E-3 whose sole purpose as maintaining/trouble shooting JTIDS; I was more looking at the overall effect of an E-3 in an AOR.

I know exactly how much SA is getting pushed out to various platforms through the data link and that's how I've learned that the "art" of controlling requires you to STFU especially when working with Raptors. But will the datalink always be there? A discussion for another forum.

As far as the debrief comments it wasn't a spear chucked at anyones MDS but, even at collocated fighter units, when I'm standing in the vault in front of Blue1 (who died during the vul along with 2 wingmen) says "great job" and nothing else to report. I don't expect them to diagram comm and figure out where one more threat call would have saved the day because I'll do that back at the squadron but there has to be a "big picture" DFP or other learning nugget that will allow better interaction next time. Hell, I like to sit in on Eagle debriefs simply because the more I fill my cluebag with your employment the more I learn when and when not to speak. Same goes for air-to-mud bros but those are in short supply here in AK.

[Guest Fogo]

Being on the other ABM platform right now, I won't fight anyone making that assessment about AWACS. I'll leave it at that.

The dudes on the ground doing GCI are however ABMs as well. Most of those guys can control, and do it the right way: Adding SA and keeping the airspace safe. Granted; nothing is standard at all in the AOR right now, and any ABM in theater is not doing the standard job they train for.

The E-8 is a whole other ball of wax. To the original questioneer of this thread; just PM me man and I'll give you the dope; good and bad on the career field. I've got no problems with full dislcosure: Probably the reason some others in the career field wouldn't get along with me: I'm not adding glamour where it isn't.

To the guy ragging on C21 and acting like we're the life blood of the AF: STFU. Don't know where you are at right now, and don't really care: Just don't come work with me.

Ops is where its at, as has been stated many times. Pilots fly their own platform and do their particular mission; our guys shouldn't be any different. Be what you are; not what you think it'd be cool to be.

[brickhistory]

I've been E-3'd, E-8'd, FACP (CRC-lite to the young 'uns), and even a little E-2 time.

Fair comments about lack of experience (which gets displayed over the freq for the AOR to hear) and as soon as that experience is gained, you are yanked into other positions.

Fail on leadership/crew manning by KTIK.

As was amply demonstrated by the Black Hawk shootdown - inexperience WDs supervised by an inexperienced (some would argue unqualified SD) played their part in getting people killed. Not the only role in that tragedy, but certainly not an 'extra's' part, either.

So, to the non-ABM'ers who scoff, I hope you will learn a little about the job/platforms before opening fire 'just because,' but I don't hold my breath.

To the ABM'ers, don't try to earn the respect of your controllees respect by adopting their habits. That comes across as "Hey, Butch, whaddya wanna do now? Huh? Huh" like the old cartoons where the little yippy dog is fawning all over the big bulldog.

Earn it by doing a good job then it doesn't matter what 'they' think.