Air Battle Manager (ABM) info

[Mickey]

I very much enjoy being an ABM. I've been lucky with my timing. I deployed right after Sept 11 and got to fly the first night of OIF. I think I've earned the respect of the fighter pilots here on base by knowing what I'm doing, admiting when I'm wrong, finding a way to fix the problem, and not making the same mistake again. I also get involved in mission planning, briefing, and debriefing. I'm not afraid for me or my crew to be a DFP and I'm not afraid to defend my crew when we are right. As far as no one wanting to be an ABM, I'm not sure that's true. I wasn't pilot qualified and turned down a nav slot. I think most jobs are what you make of them. Bloom where the Air Force plants you. It is hard to enjoy your job if you aren't good at it. Most young controllers aren't very good for a variety of reasons (not enough experience, poor debriefs, not asking the right questions, and not learning lessons from their mistakes). Utimatley, it is up to you to learn the lessons of your job and apply them. Being an ABM is extremly fun once you get to know the pilots and are able to make the right call at the right time. Nothing like going to a debrief and have a SQ/CC WIC grad say "Mickey good work today" or having the wing weapons officer say "your dudes have been providing really good control...better than most". Any job is what you make of it. If you sit around bitching and complaining of how being an ABM sucks and you wish you were a pilot, you never will enjoy being an ABM. Good luck with whatever job you end up with.

[Guest Krabs]

Drunken thread revival: pilot slot guy, med DQ'd, now has ABM slot.

I have used the search function.

I have PM'd Fogo and abmwaldo.

What else can I (dumbass ROTC puke) learn about the ABM profession? Because this is a forum, and I have PM'd the guys who know their stuff in the actual job (thank you), I especially want the "controlled" (haha) pilots perspective on what they want/need/expect from a GOOD ABM.

I'm all ears except for the usual sh!tting on of ABMs. ABMs may not drop bombs, but we are rated (why? ask the AF), and I'm out to get those bombs on target as best I can. Help me do that.

[brickhistory]

krabs,

Learn the system, listen to those who have the experience (on both sides of the scope), study your ass off on your particular systems capes/lims, good guy aircraft/weapons/tactics and bad guy aircraft/weapons/tactics, and don't be a tool; i.e., do your job the best that you can.

Ignore the tools that have nothing constructive to offer when providing a debrief, listen intently to those that do. Understand what you can and cannot do or offer with the system being employed. Offer something constructive during a brief or debrief if you have it, otherwise STFU.

Never miss an opportunity to not make a SA-draining radio call, but don't hesitate to make the one that will get someone's eyes (Mk I or electronic) onto the threat. Make that call with the fewest words possible.

Contact E-3, E-8, and ground, both mobile and not, units and talk to the younger Lts and a couple of field graders.

Good book is "AWACS and Hawkeyes" by Edwin Armistead. He was an USN E-2 NFO, don't know if he's still on active duty or retired.

Dated, but still interesting: https://www.pinetreeline.org/

Some of the history of where ABMs started is in some good WWII books; check out stuff on the Battle of Britain, night fighters, GCI development. A couple of good books for those include "Night Fighter" by C.F. Rawnsley and Robert Wright, and "Radar: A Wartime Miracle," forgot the author. There are numerous others.

edited to add: sorry about the pilot DQ thing. Sucks...

Edited March 1, 2009 by brickhistory

[abmwaldo]

We've already discussed some of the reasons why E-3 control can be "SA-degrading" so I'll propose a solution.

This proposal is based on observations on how the Brits conduct their GCI business. Now that we are accruing gate hours for CRC (ground control) is there a reason why we can't send our controllers to CRCs for several years? This is what the Brits do and it seems to season their controllers and make them able to integrate into the larger battlespace once they're airborne on an E-3. This had an additional advantage that the young lieutenant controllers (wingman if you will) can learn from the enlisted WDs who still control in CRCs. Enlisted WDs are able to be controllers their entire career but in brilliant force management decision, one I don't fully understand, were removed from the jet.

Brick/Fogo - your thoughts?

Daynight - I've also flown in NORTHERN EDGE where AWACS was a "go/no-go" for the entire exercise. We can't necessarily debate the pros and cons of having a F-22 act as GCI on this forum but I would invite you to come to Alaska to see how E-3/F-15/F-22 interaction works based on daily training/integration.

[Young Crow]

We've already discussed some of the reasons why E-3 control can be "SA-degrading"...

It's not so much SA-degrading that bothers me, it is the things are either dangerous or just plain stupid.

I've done the Red Flag/WS thing with AWACS, but most of my interaction has been in the AOR.

Two moments, out of many, will forever be the first things I think about when someone says "AWACS":

1. Being vectored nose-to-nose, co-altitude with a tanker. We got an RA on TCAS, got out of his way, and then the MCC on AWACS calls us up on VPN and asks us if we're going to file a HATR on him. It was embarrassing listening to this guy try to blame us, while we should have been focusing on the bad guys we were looking for on the ground. For the life of me I cannot understand why they are over there... The CRCs do an infinitely better job. And when we're out of range, I usually feel safer being Due Regard than under "positive control" of AWACS.

2. Being asked repeatedly to look for an SA-6 in the vicinity of Kandahar. Really?

I've got nothing against JSTARS, they always seem to do a good job. I just don't know what it is about AWACS.

In summation... I would definitely pick Nav over ABM, if you had the choice. Rated used to mean "aviation rating," as in you know something about aviation.

[brickhistory]

We've already discussed some of the reasons why E-3 control can be "SA-degrading" so I'll propose a solution.

This proposal is based on observations on how the Brits conduct their GCI business. Now that we are accruing gate hours for CRC (ground control) is there a reason why we can't send our controllers to CRCs for several years? This is what the Brits do and it seems to season their controllers and make them able to integrate into the larger battlespace once they're airborne on an E-3. This had an additional advantage that the young lieutenant controllers (wingman if you will) can learn from the enlisted WDs who still control in CRCs. Enlisted WDs are able to be controllers their entire career but in brilliant force management decision, one I don't fully understand, were removed from the jet.

Brick/Fogo - your thoughts?

Daynight - I've also flown in NORTHERN EDGE where AWACS was a "go/no-go" for the entire exercise. We can't necessarily debate the pros and cons of having a F-22 act as GCI on this forum but I would invite you to come to Alaska to see how E-3/F-15/F-22 interaction works based on daily training/integration.

amwaldo, that is essentially what I did. After escaping SAC ICBMs, I went to a FACP (manual system, pre-MCE/CRC), controlled a lot. Then went to E-3s at RODN. Still controlled a fair amount as compared to KTIK guys (not a slam on Tinker guys per se. If you don't get the practice, you don't get the practice), then to E-8s. We do a disservice to the young guys by not getting them all the missions they can get as a 'controller' before becoming an Air Battle "Manager." Even then starting as a young captain, I was behind the guys who started as 2Lts and had controlled many more missions than I had prior to becoming an SD. I think I was competent, but not great. There were (still are, I'm sure) some really good controllers. There were (probably still are) some complete morons as well.

There is nothing like experience to build SA and capability.

Thank God all the 'customers' have it from day one and never screw the pooch.

Oh wait, they aren't on center stage for everybody, everywhere to listen to them, so their buffoonery, usually, is in front of a smaller venue.

And have perfect SA on every player, everywhere, at all times.

(Note: sarcasm switch to "on.")

But, for krab's question, I'd work the phones and talk to folks doing the mission.

[Guest Fogo]

We've already discussed some of the reasons why E-3 control can be "SA-degrading" so I'll propose a solution.

This proposal is based on observations on how the Brits conduct their GCI business. Now that we are accruing gate hours for CRC (ground control) is there a reason why we can't send our controllers to CRCs for several years? This is what the Brits do and it seems to season their controllers and make them able to integrate into the larger battlespace once they're airborne on an E-3. This had an additional advantage that the young lieutenant controllers (wingman if you will) can learn from the enlisted WDs who still control in CRCs. Enlisted WDs are able to be controllers their entire career but in brilliant force management decision, one I don't fully understand, were removed from the jet.

Brick/Fogo - your thoughts?

Daynight - I've also flown in NORTHERN EDGE where AWACS was a "go/no-go" for the entire exercise. We can't necessarily debate the pros and cons of having a F-22 act as GCI on this forum but I would invite you to come to Alaska to see how E-3/F-15/F-22 interaction works based on daily training/integration.

I'm at JSTARS so my only AWACS experience is from the undergrad schoolhouse and seeing them at flags. They are two totally different platforms, as JSTARS has hardly anything to do with anything airspace. We have a lot better chance to do the whole "enhance someone's SA" by giving pointouts on movers on the ground; where targets are, link work, etc etc.

Every career field has their tools... Unfortunately too many of ours are tools who are bitter that they aren't pilots... Further worsening this is that 99% of those that fit that description are young LT controllers; and thats why the opinion of ABMs is often what it is.

All I know is, there are a lot of people in the FOL that love what JSTARS is doing right now; so we just keep doing it. That's my job, I couldn't be a pilot, but I still wanted to be ops and fly. So I learned my role, got good at it, and go out and do it.

[Whitty]

Every career field has their tools... Unfortunately too many of ours are tools who are bitter that they aren't pilots... Further worsening this is that 99% of those that fit that description are young LT controllers; and thats why the opinion of ABMs is often what it is.

This is in-line with most of the what I've heard from friends scattered around AD.

I'm heading to Tyndall to start UABMT this November. ABM was the only job I competed for, and I feel lucky for having received a slot. The best piece of advice I ever got was from a Colonel who came to visit our detachment: "No matter what job you end up doing, be the best at it."

I know there's really nothing I can do about the reputation of LT controllers being worthless. As a Lt on my way into that AFSC, however, I want to do everything I can to at least be the best worthless LT controller.

[abmwaldo]

This is in-line with most of the what I've heard from friends scattered around AD.

I'm heading to Tyndall to start UABMT this November. ABM was the only job I competed for, and I feel lucky for having received a slot. The best piece of advice I ever got was from a Colonel who came to visit our detachment: "No matter what job you end up doing, be the best at it."

I know there's really nothing I can do about the reputation of LT controllers being worthless. As a Lt on my way into that AFSC, however, I want to do everything I can to at least be the best worthless LT controller.

Based on your comments I think you're a quarter of the way to "not being a tool." The other 3/4 includes study of all applicable documents and publications. Take every opportunity to "STFU" while a young guy, fresh out of training. Take advantage of opportunities to interact with those you control to learn what they need and require. Ask those who have been there/done that their experiences and try to learn from their mistakes; don't be afraid of the "bar" even if you don't drink as there is good learning to be had there and some would say there are only lessons which can be taught/learned in that environment.

Waldo

[08Dawg]

Not an ABM, but I think this still applies. Being in UFT, the FTU, whatever, one of the best places to really learn about your job, your MDS and your community is going to the bar on Friday night and listening to the guys who have been there and done that. Don't pass up that opportunity.

[Parker]

Sorry if this has already been answered, I've used the search function in the forum and haven't come up with much. I'm an ABM select due to commission in June and so far I haven't gotten much information, mainly that training is around 1.5 years and that I'll be in an AWACS or JSTAR :) super helpful.

I'm just hoping any of you ABMers out there might be able to offer more enlightenment, I'm really excited about the job so far but really want to know what its about. Plus I have no idea what to expect in Tyndall right now which is making planning hard. Will i stay in dorms like the pilots and CSOs are told to expect? Or will it be off base housing (perferable for me because I have pets and furniture)? Will I have time for anything? Whats the weather like? What should I expect when I go to Tinker/Robins? Are any bases preferable over others? I have so many questions and am just looking for someone to answer them and kind of clear up the uncertanties :)

Thanks for any info you may have.

[Disco_Nav963]

Not an ABM, but used to be on E-3s. There really needs to be an ABM forum like there is for CSO and RPA...

Anyway, location-wise Geilenkirchen (NATO AWACS), Kadena and Elemendorf are typically sought-after first assignments but they only drop to a small percentage of UABMT grads. Most will go to Tinker. Haven't been to Robins, but on the plus side their mission is more interesting, and on the negative side I always hear people say Robins is two hours from everything, but there isn't much in the local area. If you go to USAF E-3s, wherever you go, you'll go to Tinker first... First to the 552 TRS who owns you during contract academic/sim instruction, then to the 966 AACS for flight training. At the 966th you'll do some of your "sorties" in the sim, and for the flights you'll sit on the ground and step to the spare a lot. I'm trying to remember how many rides were in the ABM syllabus when I left (I was a nav instructor at the 966th) and I want to say about 10. Hopefully someone who knows better will speak up. After that, you'll do 2-3 weeks of MQT culminating in a cert brief, then graduate to your gaining squadron. At this point, in the old days, you would have finally gotten your wings and started earning your gate months. I understand that now you graduate from UABMT with wings which is since you don't even know if you're a puker yet.

As far as Tinker goes, people b***ch about the 552 ACW but I think it's a little shortsighted... Everyone in the Air Force is overtasked and underfunded/undermanned, there is leadership flail going on everywhere, it's just even harder to manage currencies/checkrides/ancillary training/etc. for squadrons of 330 vice 30 or 60. Have a good attitude and you'll do fine. Morale does not seem noticeably higher in bombers, fighter pilots b***ch on here all the time, so do the AMC bubbas... Bloom where you're planted, you'll do just fine. If you want to do something else after a while, I know two ABMs from my old squadron that just got picked up for UPT. It can happen if you work for it. I think in most squadrons you get two over the shoulder rides before you get signed off Combat Mission Ready. Then it's fly, sim, work in scheduling or SNACKO, and go deploy using a skillset different from what you've spent most of your training focused on (think more "battle management," less controlling). The OKC location is fantastic. AFAIC, it's one of the best cities in America to live in especially for a young dude.

Congratulations... You're stepping into an underrated career field with the potential to do a lot and have a lot of fun along the way. The spears you get from fighter dudes, tanker dudes, and your own flight deck? Take them and learn from them. Seize every opportunity you can get to control and get a good debrief. Seize every opportunity you can get to interface with non-fighter dudes and learn their needs (did you know bombers have "fighter" timelines too?). Good luck.

[Noodle]

Parker,

All the info is pretty spot on, you will start at Tyndall and learn the basics of controlling. I'm not sure how the syllabus at Tyndall is set up these days but I know it involves a mix of sims and live control. I can only speak to AWACS because its where I've been but if you stay with a U.S. AWACS squadron you will go through the process that Disco_Nav talked about starting in the TRS and going through DRG(civilian contractors) will teach how to use the system on the jet. Unfortunately what you are taught on a nice windows based system at and the system on the jet is very different. Make sure you really study through this part and learn the system. Once you get out the 966th you have 7 flights then a check ride. Of your seven flights two can be accomplished completely in the sim usually done on rides 2-4 and on rides 1-5 if you don't control live on the jet can be completed in the sim. The MQT part is exactly how Disco_Nav said. Once you get out into the line try to get as many flights and sims as you can because hours are getting shorter every year. Any chance you get to de-brief with the pilots you worked with take it, if the mission goes bad fess up to your mistakes and learn from them. If you have an specific questions shoot me a PM.

[abmwaldo]

Parker,

I'm an instructor at Tyndall, AWACS at Elmendorf background.

What to expect?

You'll start training fairly quickly now as the pipeline doesn't have any delays. One of the LTs in my class had been in the Air Force FIFTEEN days prior to starting class.

Where do I live?

You won't be required to live on base in dorms but if you're married there is new housing available. Most of the LTs live in either Waterstone, Eagles Landing or the Enclave. College with a paycheck. I lived at Enclave when I was a student and I live in Mexico Beach now. Mexico Beach is a small town on the beach east of base. Good if you're married... ok if you're not.

What's the weather like?

Nice in the winter, hot and ######ing humid 8 months out of the year.

Will I have time for anything else?

Yes, you are not 100% tasked at all times. Leave during training is typically a no go but I know students are out now having fun on "Spring Break."

How is the syllabus?

9 total blocks of instruction

Early blocks are purely academic (radar/radio theory, AWACS, JSTARS, CRC)

Middle is close control and low speed contract aircraft (setting fighter heading, altitude, speed and talking them to a target aircraft)

Later rides include a mixture of live and "DMO" operations. Live aircraft control is done with the 43FS (F-22) or going TDY to control F-15C, F-16, F-18. Emphasis is not COMPLETELY on air to air and there are multiple air to ground as well as large force exercises.

Do students fail?

Yes. Typical attrtion is 10-15% annually.

Where will I go after graduation?

It depends. Students primarily go to Tinker or Robins (AWACS/JSTARS respectively) as well as Elmendorf, Kadena or GK (all AWACS). Students can now go direct to CRCs (Hill, Spangdahlem, Mountain Home) or Osan Korea. There are opportunities to be a "plowback" or basically graduate and then become an instructor.

Tyndall is in transition now... The 325 FW is transitioning from an AETC base to an ACC base; for students not necessarily a huge deal but being a tenant unit on an ACC base will lead to creative scheduling. Eventually we'll be a tenant unit of the 33FW at Eglin (standing up the F-35 training pipeline). The 325 ACS just opened up a new control facility (~$17 million) that is EXTREMELY nice and we're still working the bugs out of the system.

If you've got any other questions feel free to shoot me an email.

Learn from the debrief; it's why you're there.

Edited March 9, 2012 by abmwaldo

[Disco_Nav963]

Students can now go direct to CRCs (Hill, Spangdahlem, Mountain Home) or Osan Korea.

Best news I've heard in a long time (in terms of ensuring we have a critical mass of really really good controllers in the crew force, and a supply of SDs and IAWOs at the 4-8 years TAFCSD age that can replace the ones Tinker makes and then hemorrhages. And if I were a young brand new AWO I'd be angling to be part of the crew that is going to turn out the lights at Aviano, but that's just me. Do those that go direct to CRCs get their gate months started right away?

Edited March 9, 2012 by Disco_Nav963

[Blip]

Disco,

ABM AOs (subsequently gate months and flight pay) now start at Tyndall. Yes, they're flying and it's legit. Since the introduction of basic military aviation into the syllabus (April 2011) there have been a few upchuckers identified (maybe 3 or 4 total thus far), but in each case the student was seen by the flight doc and overcame it. The ABM gate month structure has two years built in where one can accrue "ground gate months," and has some slack so after the ground gate months are up, one can afford to lose a few extra gate months. Ground gate months mean the individual is on inactive AOs and categorized as "ground radar" in the aviation resource managment realm.

Parker,

abmwaldo said it all. Emphasis on "learn from the debrief." Don't be a limfac.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Blip

[Whitty]

I'm an ABM at Robins. Feel free to PM with any questions you might have about the JSTARS side of the house.

[Parker]

Thanks abmwaldo, that was super informative :)

I do have a small issue that arose on Monday at my flight physical. I've had PRK done and it's corrected my vision to 20/20 in both eyes with an astigmatism in my left eye. I'm planning on getting this corrected but couldn't be on MRS any longer so it'll happen over the summer. I failed my depth perception test with the 5 dots but I can pass it with the special glasses and 3d cards (the fly etc) and what not because that was one of the post op tests. I'm getting fitted for a contact to counteract the astigmatism but wondering if this was the death knell for my ABM dreams? Any ideas?

Edited March 15, 2012 by Parker

[sigmanugary]

Parker, I'm also an Instructor ABM down here at Tyndall. I wouldn't think that the astigmatism should be an issue...my vision is awful and I have an astigmatism in my right eye (on a waiver for both, not a big deal). You should be good. If the flight doc is giving you some grief about it let us know the details. Lots of 13Bs have waivers for vision.

[Whitty]

You don't need to pass depth perception for a Class 3 physical.

[koonunga_hill]

Hey All,

I'm a recent ROTC grad, getting ready to head down to Tyndall in a few months. Just wondering if there was anything that would help me prepare for UABMT that I could get my hands on now. I know a lot of the stuff is FOUO or classified, but I would also like to know as much as possible about what ABM's actually do in theater, and what we do stateside.

Finally, a little off topic, but I know opportunities for a tour as an ALO won't be going away, does anyone know about what that's like?

Thanks for the great info so far, these last couple months are going to be pretty brutal.

[ram02]

Hey All,

I'm a recent ROTC grad, getting ready to head down to Tyndall in a few months. Just wondering if there was anything that would help me prepare for UABMT that I could get my hands on now. I know a lot of the stuff is FOUO or classified, but I would also like to know as much as possible about what ABM's actually do in theater, and what we do stateside.

Finally, a little off topic, but I know opportunities for a tour as an ALO won't be going away, does anyone know about what that's like?

Thanks for the great info so far, these last couple months are going to be pretty brutal.

The baseline document that ABMs use is AFTTP 3-1 Attachment 1. Even though it's UNCLAS, it's not openly available, so the first time you'll see it will probably be at Tyndall. Don't sweat it, though; honestly, if you don't have prior C2 experience, most of the concepts and terminology will require someone to explain it to you anyway, and there will be plenty of time to study it once you get to Tyndall. For now, probably the best things you can do are enjoy your time off, drink plenty of beer, travel wherever/whenever you want without having to fill out ridiculous forms and getting safety briefed to death, etc.

Also, it never hurts to look on the internet and see what the housing situation is like down there. When I went though Tyndall, I lived in Mexico Beach, which is a small beach town to the east side of base. The rest of my classmates lived in Callaway or Panama City north of the base. There's also Panama City Beach which is a little farther, usually like a 45 min drive to work given the traffic and horrible stop light timing.

If you really wanted to work on something, try improving your ability to listen to multiple conversations at the same time. Try visiting a site like LiveATC.net and listening to two streams at the same time; set one a little bit louder than the other and see how well you can keep track of what's happening on both frequencies. A typical AWACS ABM is expected to listen to 5 radios (4 working freqs plus guard) and 4 intercoms (3 internal nets plus a maintenance net) at the same time, so you can see how important this skill is to develop. Of course, not every radio will be active at the same time, and some are more important than others, so the technique most people use is to prioritize frequencies by volume.

As for what ABMs do in theater, the very quick and simple answer is airspace deconfliction: making sure the various players get the airspace they need and they don't run into other airplanes, keep away from artillery fire, etc. Back stateside, the focus is more on the traditional air-to-air skillset of controlling fighters, providing a picture call, pointing out threats, and that sort of thing. As for ALO, I have not personally done an ALO tour so perhaps others can chime in, but the opportunities are definitely there; I believe there were something like 5 or 6 slots on the last ABM bill that Tinker had.

Please feel free to send me a PM if you'd like more info and welcome to the career field!

[Prosuper]

Just a bit of helpful advice from a guy who used to fix and fly on E-3's for 13 years. At crew show at the jet bring your own cream and sugar for coffee and handiwipes/hand sanitzer to clean your O2 mask. Dont ask the crew chief for any of this because he will be busy fixing one of your guys chairs that they just broke. Mx does maintenance not catering. Have some common courtesy for your fellow female crew dawgs and not unleash a out of control fire hose in the lavatory. Also learn early that the flight deck will never like you and if you whine more that means more transitions(practice takeoffs and landings) at the end of a 8 hour sortie back a Tinker, their evil like that.

[Disco_Nav963]

Let me caveat one thing Prosuper just said... Transition is the entire period you are doing pattern work. Multiple patterns is multiple patterns, not multiple "transitions." Goats ABMS saying "transitions" is a flight deck pet peeve. But don't worry, you are not fated to have them not like you (especially if you are female Lt AWO Yummypants). Just have some SA and don't self-marginalize by only hanging out with the weapon bros when you get to your squadron just b/c you've been hanging out with them through Tyndall and the FTU. And some day when you're an MCC, never forget that while you might be a Major, the Captain AC still outranks you on the jet!

Edited May 20, 2012 by Disco_Nav963

[LL Windshear]

Reading stuff like this makes me understand why EVERY SINGLE PERSON I know who has ever flown on the E-3 hates it. You know its bad when you hate each other. Read what you guys just wrote...it's chock full of hate and bitterness. In MC-12's, we typically get along great. On the Cobra Ball, we got along great too. ABCCC...yep, we got along there too. And the whole time we high-fived each other over the fact that we didn't have to fly the E-3, for reasons like what you typed above. We extended training missions to get the mission crew complete, and we flew pattern work to get the pilots complete, before going to the bar to get shit-faced together.