WG/CC fired for failing PT waist measurement

[Jughead]

it's good to see the service be fair for a change. Problem is, it's just plain stupid policy.

Hopefully this will wake some senior leaders up to the fact that they are loosing competent airmen to an arbitrary measurement that has nothing to do with job performance.

This. Said much better than I did a few posts back.

[Everybody Knows]

This story does not surprise me at all, and it's unfortunate that this guy's career will end like this. Big Blue went against the sage advice of "NEVER Go Full Retard" a long, long time ago (and the current CSAF has done nothing to reverse that trend). The recent AFT article regarding the waist measurement review quoted CMSAF Cody as saying "If we can't fix this in six months, we need to come to terms.....that it just may be too hard to fix". YGTBFSM, we've thrived as the world's most elite air force for how many years prior to a waist measurement on a physical fitness assessment (not to mention only taking the assessment once a year during the first 50+ years), we've sent men to moon decades ago, we've successfully sent and remain in contact with a rover on Mars (that's another planet BTW), etc........and this one is too tough to tackle? JHFC, am I the only one here taking crazy pills. I seriously find it easier to relate to that poltergeist clown than I do the last couple of batches of Big Blue leadership.

BTW, I've never failed the test. However, the waist measurement has been a giant pain for me. I'm one of those 93% showing up as passing each test, but I'm also part of a large segment (no pun intended) that has to do stupid shit (starve, dehydrate for at least a week out) in order to stay under the min measurement. I get more than 90% of the points for each of the physical components, yet always get dragged down by the waist. When I first saw cheerleaders for this waist measurement piping up about how great it was (some of them on this very thread), I just thought they were bit ignorant in not understanding fundamental differences in physiology from one person to the next, although I quickly figured out that their enthusiasm had more to do with the fact that they more genetically prone to be thinner and found this policy to be in their favor.........for comparison, if it was possible to be born with a strand of AAD already coded in your DNA, which means you then wouldn't be required to pursue a BS Masters degree, only those without the AAD strand would......you'd have the same cheerleaders out waiving pom-poms. Don't kid yourself, this is the same type of thinking.

[afnav]

I was beaten up for multiple failures in the last two years I was in.

My marine boss told me that there was absolutely no reason to fail a PT test.

After the doctors told him in person that I have significant, life-threatening medical issues, he ignored them. I overdid it to pass, and now have four pieces of titanium in my foot as a souvenir.

The Air Farce has lost its fucking mind regarding PT.

[Karl Hungus]

The Air Farce has lost its fucking mind regarding just about everything.

Fixed it for you.

Seriously folks, keep stuff like this in mind when it's time to make important career decisions for you and your family. The AF doesn't give a shit about you or anyone you care about, despite their claims to the contrary.

[disgruntledemployee]

As most decent SrNCOs give sage advice to their bosses, this story fits where the Chief reminds the 2 star of how many Es were shown the door, lost a stripe, prevented from adding a stripe, lost that supervisor job, etc, all in the name of the almighty and glorious PT test, praise Shawn T. "It will look bad, it will look like favoratism, Sir." And he's right.

I've been there watching an NCO try to strain out that extra 3-4 perfect, all the way down, all the way up push-ups. And upon failure, throw down the water bottle in frustration as he knew that he was now going to lose a stripe for another failure and take away from his ability to provide for his family.

That is FUCKED UP.

On a side note, observing a few status of discipline meetings the bulk of the problems were PT failures. On the flying sq side, most CCs chose to request retention from the wing CC, but non-flying CCs more often did not request retention. I guess they used PT as a tool to get rid of undesireables or "slackers." And flying units could do the same, but they didn't. When we asked for retention, we got it.

I will add that of all the discussions regarding discipline, PT was the most heated. So I think wing CCs are getting the full picture, but whether they take that passion up higher for change, who knows.

Out

[Spoo]

I think we should adopt the Army, Navy, and Marine Corps' waist measurement standards. They seem to have figured that one out.

[amcflyboy]

My buddy saw an old DO of ours who just finished a tour as a Wing CC and he asked him what the worst part about being a Wing CC was... "The most frustrating thing was when the AF forced me to kick out several outstanding troops who were great at their jobs just because they couldn't pass part of a PT test, but the useless slugs who sucked at their jobs and didn't give a shit, I was forced to keep."

Maj Gen Bender, the guy who fired him, is definitely one of the good guys. I've heard a few unconfirmed stories from guys who work in his office that there is a little more to the story than just the waist measurement (no crazy scandal or anything), but it was a tough call where the Gen didn't have much of a choice.

With that being said I think that PT standards need to be looked at for the good of the service. Passing a PT test for an 20 year old infantry soldier makes sense. While the soldier obviously needs to use his brain and think on the battle field, for the most part his body is the MWS... if he isn't in shape then he can't do his job and the lives of his fellow soldiers as well as the mission depend on it. When I do my walk around at Kabul and see some hydraulic fluid leaking out of an engine cowling, the last thing on my mind when the FCC is the only guy who can fix it is how many push-ups he can do or what his waist measurement is. This Wing CC didn't get the job because of his 1.5 mile time... he was hired for his brain, his management skills and (hopefully) his leadership skills. I've had more than a few co-pilots who spent 7 hrs crossing the pond talking about their workout plans and the different supplements they were taking who couldn't land the plane to save their life. I understand that the General probably didn't have a choice, but its a shame to see a Commander (who by all accounts was one of the good ones) be drummed out for something like this.

Couldn't land a plane to save his life, eh? Then for fucks sake, why doesn't his OPR reflect this? Oh wait...there's too many pussies running around in leadership positions.

OPR's have fitness testing as well as job performance boxes on the back...in case some leaders forgot.

[Champ Kind]

I knew it was turning into madness when I realized I'd rather take a checkride than a PFT. At least if I hose a checkride, I can only blame myself.

[pcola]

I knew it was turning into madness when I realized I'd rather take a checkride than a PFT. At least if I hose a checkride, I can only blame myself.

And your career won't be in jeopardy.

Fail a checkride...clean it up and move on and it can be buried. Fail a PT test, you're off the strat list and it continues to haunt you every time the Wg/CC looks at your record before signing your OPR. How f'd up is that?

[contraildash]

The PT system needs to be revamped with some semblance of common sense (like that's going to happen), I have personal experience with the BS that's involved: I had a signle component failure once. Wasn't feeling good to start with, rolled over on my side to puke while doing situps. Failed on the spot for leaving the "position". Called my flight/cc at the time and he told me to just go ahead and do the run. I beasted it out, got a 88 overall, but still failed.

I also have always struggled with the waist measurement. At OTS (my best PFT) I maxed out the pushups and situps, got a 9:40 on the run, but my 36 inch waist drug me down. Shit, if I can haul my 'fat ass' around the track faster than a skinny dude....I should get bonus points.

[HuggyU2]

...but it was a tough call where the Gen didn't have much of a choice.

He doesn't have much of a choice?? This is a significant problem.

If a general officer doesn't "feel" that his position allows him the ability to use judgment when he knows that the current policy is detrimental to the overall situation, then either he or the system (or both) has failed.

Edited March 22, 2013 by Huggyu2

[M2]

He doesn't have much of a choice?? This is a significant problem.

If a general officer doesn't "feel" that his position allows him the ability to use judgment when he knows that the current policy is detrimental to the overall situation, then either he or the system (or both) has failed.

Yeah, like 3AF/CC Lt Gen Craig Franklin for overturning the conviction of Lt. Col. James Wilkerson, former 31 FW IG at Aviano? UCMJ Art 60 gives Franklin the right as convening authority to overrule the court-martial, but look where that decision has landed him.

Every decision will be scrutinized by higher headquarters and civilian leadership alike. We might all wish we/they had the authority (and backing) to make such decisions, but the truth is that most leadership is watching out for their own ass more than anything else's...

The "system" is fucked...

[HeloDude]

....but the truth is that most leadership is watching out for their own ass more than anything else's...

This

[Rusty Pipes]

He doesn't have much of a choice?? This is a significant problem.

If a general officer doesn't "feel" that his position allows him the ability to use judgment when he knows that the current policy is detrimental to the overall situation, then either he or the system (or both) has failed.

Unfortunately 2 Stars in charge of flying wings don't write the PT policy. I'm not saying it is right, but if his choice were in the other direction the same folks on here bitching about the decision would be bitching about how a bunch of Airmen were being kicked out while the policy didn't apply to Senior Leaders. Our PFT and PT policy is dumb... losing good people who are great at their jobs because their waist is too big or they can't do a certain number of push ups is not the right was of doing business no matter what rank they are.

Edited March 22, 2013 by Rusty Pipes

[BitteEinBit]

The thing is that the standard is upfront and obvious. We can argue all day about "Is this a good standard?" As a WG/CC, how many airmen exited the service under his pen due to failing the same standard? What should you do with an organizational leader who doesn't pass the bar we set for everyone? He's got to go. Bending the standard for an O-6 is absolutely the wrong path to go down.

Hopefully, this starts a higher AF-level discussion on what our PT test is really trying to measure. I personally think the waist measurement is one of the better tests, as you can't just punch it out with two weeks worth of work: it takes actually living healthy to pass. Sure... body composition, pinch tests, or BMI may be better tools, and maybe the standard needs some updating. That said, we've set the standard a few years ago now: leaders absolutely should be expected to both enforce them and live up to them.

Waist measurement has zero bearing on Physical Fitness. While it may be an indicator of future medical issues later in life, it does not always have bearing on ones physical abilities. I have seen fatties run 8:30 mile and a half runs, and I've seen 28 inch skinnies who can't pass the run. It is a useless measure of fitness. The Air Force PT Test is not difficult to pass...even for a fatty. But failing someone who can max the run, pushups and situps but has a 40 inch waist is a foul. While i know it is not likely that the average 40-inch waist fatty is going to run an 8:30 1.5 mile run, I do know a fatty who can do this...but he failed the waist.

Now, if the Air Force wants to play the waist measurement game with regard to physical fitness, while at the same time tying large waists to health risks, then they need to reevaluate giving referral EPRs/OPRs when people fail a test for waist measurement. If you think the "waist measurement may be going away" just came out of the blue, let me introduce you to Airman Fatty at a base in NC who just got a referral EPR for failing a PT test for waist measurement who just filed a HIPPA violation against the Air Force. Yes, you heard correctly...someone is claiming HIPPA violation on the grounds that the AF is documenting a medical condition or health risk on an official performance report. People sue for anything these days. Will they win? Who knows...but it sure is coincidence that the AF is suddenly thinking pretty hard about this waist measurement.

Edited March 22, 2013 by BitteEinBit

[spaceman]

let me introduce you to Airman Fatty at a base in NC who just got a referral EPR for failing a PT test for waist measurement who just filed a HIPPA violation against the Air Force. Yes, you heard correctly...someone is claiming HIPPA violation on the grounds that the AF is documenting a medical condition or health risk on an official performance report.

Clever... isn't that what you guys refer to as "out shoe-ing the shoe"?

[Fuzz]

actually I think its brilliant move by said airman.

[17D_guy]

...At OTS (my best PFT) I maxed out the pushups and situps, got a 9:40 on the run, but my 36 inch waist drug me down. Shit, if I can haul my 'fat ass' around the track faster than a skinny dude....I should get bonus points.

Gah, was in my full Crossfit glory for OTS, 34 in waist, max pushups/situps... still a 10:45 run. I could do pullups like a beast, but these short legs suck for runs.

Also, get rid of the damn waist measurement.

[C-21.Pilot]

With everyone screaming to git rid of the waist measurement - how do we subjectively scream "hey fatass, you look like a slob in the uniform." At some point, we have to cut our losses for folks who don't measure up (or around).

I agree that waist measurement isn't a predicator for fitness or leadership, but at some point we do have to establish regulatory guidance on what we consider public perception of an "elite" fighting force or do we want an "obese" fighting force.

Everyone here is in a position of authority -- ask yourselves, how do you fix it without allowing obese (health stricken) individuals into the AF. Do you suggest that we only keep those who can run, pushup and situp?

https://articles.wash...-fitness-expert

EDIT: Let me add -- what about folks who are on Dental Class III status (i.e. non-deployable) because of hygiene issues -- 4 yrs ago when I was an AFE Flt/CC, I had two such folks. Nothing was frowned at them for something under their own control. You can open (or close) a can of worms.

Edited March 22, 2013 by C-21.Pilot

[Tank]

Unfortunately (or fortunately for some), most fattys I see are exempt from the PFT b/c of some "injury".

[spaceman]

With everyone screaming to git rid of the waist measurement - how do we subjectively scream "hey fatass, you look like a slob in the uniform." At some point, we have to cut our losses for folks who don't measure up (or around).

I agree that waist measurement isn't a predicator for fitness or leadership, but at some point we do have to establish regulatory guidance on what we consider public perception of an "elite" fighting force or do we want an "obese" fighting force.

Everyone here is in a position of authority -- ask yourselves, how do you fix it without allowing obese (health stricken) individuals into the AF. Do you suggest that we only keep those who can run, pushup and situp?

https://articles.wash...-fitness-expert

The Army's method is pretty simple. You just take the dude's height and weight after the PT test and then look at the haeight/weight chart. If the dude is too heavy for his height he gets taped. You measure his waist and neck, and then plug those measurements plus the height and weight into a little spreadsheet and it spits out their body fat. As long as that number is under the limit they are good to go.

Waist/neck measurement is still not a perfect method but it's better than just measuring the waist only. And having one max waist size regardless of height truly makes no sense at all.

[Muscle2002]

but at some point we do have to establish regulatory guidance on what we consider public perception of an "elite" fighting force or do we want an "obese" fighting force.

Ah yes, we should most certainly adjust our regulations to meet the fickle opinion of the ignorant masses. Fitness tests should, wait for it, test fitness. If they truly care about body composition, then purchase hydrostatic weighing or electrical impedance machines; even body fat calipers are more accurate.

[Everybody Knows]

With everyone screaming to git rid of the waist measurement - how do we subjectively scream "hey fatass, you look like a slob in the uniform." At some point, we have to cut our losses for folks who don't measure up (or around).

I agree that waist measurement isn't a predicator for fitness or leadership, but at some point we do have to establish regulatory guidance on what we consider public perception of an "elite" fighting force or do we want an "obese" fighting force.

Everyone here is in a position of authority -- ask yourselves, how do you fix it without allowing obese (health stricken) individuals into the AF. Do you suggest that we only keep those who can run, pushup and situp?

https://articles.wash...-fitness-expert

EDIT: Let me add -- what about folks who are on Dental Class III status (i.e. non-deployable) because of hygiene issues -- 4 yrs ago when I was an AFE Flt/CC, I had two such folks. Nothing was frowned at them for something under their own control. You can open (or close) a can of worms.

I agree that waist measurement isn't a predicator for fitness or leadership, but at some point we do have to establish regulatory guidance on what we consider public perception of an "elite" fighting force or do we want an "obese" fighting force.

Hmmm, here's some ideas of how we just might create public perception that we're an "elite" fighting force: how about we make use of the best trained Air Force in existence to take down IADS before the enemy even knows what hit them, or succeed against impossible odds to rescue and transport our injured people to skilled medical teams, or move more cargo (troops & equipment) in one month than most other air forces could move in an entire year, or create/enforce an environment that keeps our soldiers from having to look up for fear of being attacked from the sky...and then lets maintain that for decades in a row, or all the other long list of stuff that has rightly given us a reputation of an "elite" fighting force. I think this is much betting than simply relying on six-pack abs to speak for what we ######ing do for a living.

Everyone here is in a position of authority -- ask yourselves, how do you fix it without allowing obese(health stricken) individuals into the AF.

This is not the bubonic plague we are talking about here. How about this, is the guy/gal physically fit to do their ######ing job?--check YES or NO. Yes, you too are now are a rocket scientist.

Do you suggest that we only keep those who can run, pushup and situp?

Duh, I don't know, why don't we assess whether are they smart, talented and provide us with an operational or tactical advantage over our enemies? If yes, then yes. If no, then no. You are now awarded your second rocket scientist certificate for the day (login to the portal and print it for framing).

[Lord Ratner]

Waist measurement has zero bearing on Physical Fitness. While it may be an indicator of future medical issues later in life, it does not always have bearing on ones physical abilities.

Interesting you say that. I've spoken to a few people who were "in the room" when the new PT standards were developed, and according to them (take third-hand information on the internet with the due grains of NaCl), the metrics were designed with far more emphasis on predicting future medical costs to the service. Shockingly enough, fat people (pardon the oversimplification) cost more, even if they are just "bigger dudes" and can run the hell out of the 1.5 mile.

But, there is a vaild argument for the idea that if said fat-ass is a valuable and productive member of the team, then they are worth the future costs. I don't have an answer for how to fix that. But, I also agree (somewhat) with those who think it doesn't matter if Amn Snuffy the finance desk jockey can do 70 push-ups. But I also strongly dislike obesity, and have no desire to see it tolerated in the military, so here's my idea:

If you can't pass the waist measurement, you take the USAFA PFT and AFT. You pass, congrats, you've shown that your fatness (as far as the standard AF PT Test is concerned) is not affecting your ability to physically participate in the rigors of military life (whatever those are...). But if you can't pass the USAFA PFT and you can't pass the waist measurement, then you're just a fat-ass I guess, so see ya later.

Just a thought.

[Muscle2002]

Interesting you say that. I've spoken to a few people who were "in the room" when the new PT standards were developed, and according to them (take third-hand information on the internet with the due grains of NaCl), the metrics were designed with far more emphasis on predicting future medical costs to the service. Shockingly enough, fat people (pardon the oversimplification) cost more, even if they are just "bigger dudes" and can run the hell out of the 1.5 mile.

But, there is a vaild argument for the idea that if said fat-ass is a valuable and productive member of the team, then they are worth the future costs. I don't have an answer for how to fix that. But, I also agree (somewhat) with those who think it doesn't matter if Amn Snuffy the finance desk jockey can do 70 push-ups. But I also strongly dislike obesity, and have no desire to see it tolerated in the military, so here's my idea:

If you can't pass the waist measurement, you take the USAFA PFT and AFT. You pass, congrats, you've shown that your fatness (as far as the standard AF PT Test is concerned) is not affecting your ability to physically participate in the rigors of military life (whatever those are...). But if you can't pass the USAFA PFT and you can't pass the waist measurement, then you're just a fat-ass I guess, so see ya later.

Just a thought.

Sounds good to me. I've never come close to failing the waist measurement, but being a competitive powerlifter, I've also never come close to getting the maximum points. It pisses me off to no end when I can and have outrun pencil necks who cannot even squat their own bodyweight yet I score lower due to having a 37" waist.