WG/CC fired for failing PT waist measurement

[Fuzz]

Hmmm I don't think the marines have any fattys, and they don't have a waist measurement. I'm not against a waist measurement type component, but this idiot idea that if you have an over 35" waist you are fat or physically incapable. BMI or something similar should be used, I have a buddy who is 5' 5" former football player, absolutely ripped maxes every component but gets docked on his waist measurement, because he is a short muscular dude. He actually has to do the neck and BMI measurement because he fails the AF height and waist measurement. It needs to be proportional to physical stature, I'm a tall skinny guy that couldn't get lose points on the waist measurement if I tried, but other guys that are as tall are "big boned" broad shouldered guys that are getting docked and we are still both physically fit.

[disgruntledemployee]

Interesting you say that. I've spoken to a few people who were "in the room" when the new PT standards were developed, and according to them (take third-hand information on the internet with the due grains of NaCl), the metrics were designed with far more emphasis on predicting future medical costs to the service. Shockingly enough, fat people (pardon the oversimplification) cost more, even if they are just "bigger dudes" and can run the hell out of the 1.5 mile.

Then we should add a block on the EPR/OPR for "Smoker" because smokers cost a lot more in medical costs. Lets add another block for motorcycle rider because they cost more when they crash. How about another block for "workout junkie" because all those sports related injuries cost Big Uncle Sammy more money.

I can predict future medical costs too.

Out (with dripping sarcasm)

[BitteEinBit]

Interesting you say that. I've spoken to a few people who were "in the room" when the new PT standards were developed, and according to them (take third-hand information on the internet with the due grains of NaCl), the metrics were designed with far more emphasis on predicting future medical costs to the service. Shockingly enough, fat people (pardon the oversimplification) cost more, even if they are just "bigger dudes" and can run the hell out of the 1.5 mile.

Well, if we are going to talk about cost (or future cost), why don't we also target smokers who are at risk for developing costly cancer. If you smoke, you're out. Or how about anyone who has a family history of multiple sclerosis or any other costly medical disorder...OUtT with you! You know, black people are susceptible to the costly sickle cell blood disorder, they also as a group lead the US in hypertension, and heart disease, OUT with all the black people! What? You have a kid with 'special needs?' you're out!! Oh here is a good one, let's limit the number of dependents someone can have....we can't afford medical care for all of your rugrats! And tell your wife to stop going to the doctor for every sniffle, ache, or ear infection....it is getting costly. out with you and your 10 kids. Or let's just make it simple all together....if the Air Force brainiacs have determined that anything over a 32 inch waist is potentially costly...let's just get rid of anyone with a waist size over 32....problem solved and our medical costs will go to zero. I could go on.

If the Air Force wants to target costly medical care, then target specific individuals who are actually costing money instead of putting a group of people who could 'potentially' cost more money on the chopping block because they have a waist measurement over 32. Are we now going to limit how fat dependent wives can get?? Have you seen some of the dependapotamuses out there?? Surely they are costing money...

So, the bottom line is: The Air Force has had this new fitness program for 10 years now. As a whole, .we are more fit today than we were 10 years ago. In theory, medical costs should be going down for our mighty Air Force...but they are not. I just can't imagine why. Perhaps it isn't just fat people (anyone with a waist over 32 inches) who are increasing health care expenditures, but rather increasing healthcare costs that are...increasing...our...expen...di...tures...hmmmm. Wait, that just made sense...never mind....keep blaming fatty!!!

Edit: disgruntled beat me to it...good add with the high risk motorcycle riders! That high risk activity worksheet...let me take a look at that to see if we need to kick you out. Oh, and no more drinking! It is bad for the liver...shut down all the squadron bars!

Edited March 22, 2013 by BitteEinBit

[Tank]

Interesting you say that. I've spoken to a few people who were "in the room" when the new PT standards were developed, and according to them (take third-hand information on the internet with the due grains of NaCl), the metrics were designed with far more emphasis on predicting future medical costs to the service. Shockingly enough, fat people (pardon the oversimplification) cost more, even if they are just "bigger dudes" and can run the hell out of the 1.5 mile.

But, there is a vaild argument for the idea that if said fat-ass is a valuable and productive member of the team, then they are worth the future costs. I don't have an answer for how to fix that. But, I also agree (somewhat) with those who think it doesn't matter if Amn Snuffy the finance desk jockey can do 70 push-ups. But I also strongly dislike obesity, and have no desire to see it tolerated in the military, so here's my idea:

If you can't pass the waist measurement, you take the USAFA PFT and AFT. You pass, congrats, you've shown that your fatness (as far as the standard AF PT Test is concerned) is not affecting your ability to physically participate in the rigors of military life (whatever those are...). But if you can't pass the USAFA PFT and you can't pass the waist measurement, then you're just a fat-ass I guess, so see ya later.

Just a thought.

What is the USAFA PFT?

Hmmm I don't think the marines have any fattys, and they don't have a waist measurement. I'm not against a waist measurement type component, but this idiot idea that if you have an over 35" waist you are fat or physically incapable. BMI or something similar should be used, I have a buddy who is 5' 5" former football player, absolutely ripped maxes every component but gets docked on his waist measurement, because he is a short muscular dude. He actually has to do the neck and BMI measurement because he fails the AF height and waist measurement. It needs to be proportional to physical stature, I'm a tall skinny guy that couldn't get lose points on the waist measurement if I tried, but other guys that are as tall are "big boned" broad shouldered guys that are getting docked and we are still both physically fit.

5'5" football player? Pop Warner??

[M2]

Hmmm I don't think the marines have any fattys, and they don't have a waist measurement. I'm not against a waist measurement type component, but this idiot idea that if you have an over 35" waist you are fat or physically incapable. BMI or something similar should be used, I have a buddy who is 5' 5" former football player, absolutely ripped maxes every component but gets docked on his waist measurement, because he is a short muscular dude. He actually has to do the neck and BMI measurement because he fails the AF height and waist measurement. It needs to be proportional to physical stature, I'm a tall skinny guy that couldn't get lose points on the waist measurement if I tried, but other guys that are as tall are "big boned" broad shouldered guys that are getting docked and we are still both physically fit.

Have you ever computed your BMI? There are numerous websites that will calculate it for you. For my age (50) and height (6' 2") I am considered "overweight" at 195 lbs (a BMI of 25.4, anything over 25 is considered "overweight"). I am a couple of pounds over that, so despite running three miles three times a week, and exercising three other times a week, I am considered "out of shape" yet I am in better shape than at least half if not two-thirds the uniformed Air Force personnel I see where I work.

By the way, I also wear size 36 waist pants. Not sure what my "official" waist measurement would be as being retired, I honestly don't give a fuck!

[Lord Ratner]

What is the USAFA PFT?

I'm going from memory here, and only the male standards:

Pullups: 7-21

Standing Long Jump: 6'ish - 8'

Situps: 95 max, i forget the min

Push-ups: 45ish-72

600m Sprint: 2:05 - 1:35

Min score gets you 25 points, max gets you 100. 250 points required to pass IIRC, and you could only fail one event.

EDIT: Apparently you cant fail any of the events anymore. Good. Thx, Muscle

Edited March 23, 2013 by Lord Ratner

[Muscle2002]

I'm going from memory here, and only the male standards:

Pullups: 7-21

Standing Long Jump: 6'ish - 8'8"

Situps: 53-95

Push-ups: 45ish-72

600m Sprint: 2:05 - 1:35

Min score gets you 25 points, max gets you 100. 250 points required to pass IIRC, and you could only fail one event not fail any events.

[RTB]

Unfortunately (or fortunately for some), most fattys I see are exempt from the PFT b/c of some "injury".

While you can get on profile to avoid running, situps and pushups, you can always get taped. Saw this many times. The naturally skinny folks passed with only the waist measure despite ZERO fitness, and as you'd expect, the fatty's didn't.

[hindsight2020]

I'm going from memory here, and only the male standards:

Pullups: 7-21

Standing Long Jump: 6'ish - 8'

Situps: 95 max, i forget the min

Push-ups: 45ish-72

600m Sprint: 2:05 - 1:35

Min score gets you 25 points, max gets you 100. 250 points required to pass IIRC, and you could only fail one event.

EDIT: Apparently you cant fail any of the events anymore. Good. Thx, Muscle

That's an anaerobic test in nature. The regular AF PT test is aerobic in nature. You would see a lot more failures if you implemented the USAFA approach to the regular AF. Blue decided a while ago they want Lance Armstrong as their physical archetype, generally shunning those who focus on anaerobic conditioning.

That said, I would love that idea implemented. Fuck, that's the first good idea I've ever heard come out of USAFA. I would smoke that test. Most in the AF would fail miserably, especially the upper body strength components. I've always been underwhelmed by the emphasis on aerobic fitness the PT test places. Amn Snuffy can jog fast in those reflective catch-me-fvck-me's, but can't carry a 50lb bag to the end of the track or drag/carry his wounded buddy's body weight 100 yards double time. Fuckin warriors alright....

[ForgotPassword]

Has that nslayer guy shit all over this thread yet?

[Guest]

Word on the street is the waist measurement is going away soon.

There's a lot of buzz about this in the Exercise Physiologist / HAWC world--a number of higher ranking folks have brought up the topic on the Official AFMS Forums (Medics only, linked in my sig).

Some are advocating that AC be part of the PHA as it determines generally wellness and fitness for continued duty, while the PT test should focus on wartime capability to be physically active. They say that if you're chunky but can still run/push/crunch to the necessary standard, then your doing it with the added weight and therefore technically performing adequately with a disadvantage that can be separately addressed in the MDG.

HOWEVER, this program is owned by Manpower (I think?) and not Medical, so who the crap cares what we say because big blue can continue to use the test for force-shaping.

[jcj]

I think I've mentioned before on the board that I'm a surgeon. Come see me & I can make your waist < 39", doesn't matter how much over it is in the "before" picture. You'll need some healing time. In fact, I've always wanted to learn a little liposuction & I've got a great book & some tutorials on you-tube. But if lipo doesn't do the trick we have the more traditional methods of whittlin' to fall back on...

I'm sure not what big blue intended, but if you're gonna out-shoe the shoe...

(just kidding - maybe - or maybe not...)

In all seriousness, it seems to me that the Marines have it right. The PFT they take is the same one I took as a corpsman in the 1970's & 1980's (except they changed our sit-ups to crunches now). They've added the Combat Fitness Test (CFT) which seems to be a realistic test of fitness for ground combat. And they're serious about all Marines taking the test from the CMC on down.

Except for the special ops elements I don't at all think that the Air Force needs to have the same fitness level as the Marines, but it seems like it wouldn't be too hard to have a standard test of aerobic fitness, strength and task related fitness as a basic standard for the entire Air Force. You can certainly modify the technique and scoring for age & gender if you need to as the Marines have done. If the Marines can make a program work...

It sure seems like a 39" waist measurement standard is arbitrary. But I agree if it's there the CC has to meet it & I applaud the Colonel's professional and thoughtful way (which he certainly knew would also become very public) of addressing the issue with his command at what must have been a pretty unpleasant time. Makes me want to call him up & see if he needs to have a little outpatient surgery in the back of the van & go get re-taped...

[Guest]

...let me introduce you to Airman Fatty at a base in NC who just got a referral EPR for failing a PT test for waist measurement who just filed a HIPPA violation against the Air Force. Yes, you heard correctly...someone is claiming HIPPA violation on the grounds that the AF is documenting a medical condition or health risk on an official performance report. People sue for anything these days. Will they win? Who knows...but it sure is coincidence that the AF is suddenly thinking pretty hard about this waist measurement.

As I read this, I started to think about how to respond with the various military exemptions. It kept going back and forth in my mind, and all I can think now is, "Holy shit, I would love to hear this argued in court--it would last days with just straight opening arguments."

Then we should add a block on the EPR/OPR for "Smoker" because smokers cost a lot more in medical costs. Lets add another block for motorcycle rider because they cost more when they crash. How about another block for "workout junkie" because all those sports related injuries cost Big Uncle Sammy more money.

I can predict future medical costs too.

Out (with dripping sarcasm)

Compare the US's economic costs of Obesity and/or Type 2 Diabetes to Tobacco Use. Yeah, it's kinda unbalanced.

Fat is pricy.

EDIT: Let me add -- what about folks who are on Dental Class III status (i.e. non-deployable) because of hygiene issues -- 4 yrs ago when I was an AFE Flt/CC, I had two such folks. Nothing was frowned at them for something under their own control. You can open (or close) a can of worms.

I've never seen someone MEB'd for dental issues. Maybe they aren't doing the best things for their oral health, but people are rarely AAC 31 for more than 90 days for dental. Booting someone over it would need to be an extreme and unique case.

Unfortunately (or fortunately for some), most fattys I see are exempt from the PFT b/c of some "injury".

This is SLOWLY being fixed by the new AFI 10-203 and a focus on PT exemptions and deployability. It will never be perfect, but it is much better than 10 years ago.

Do you suggest that we only keep those who can run, pushup and situp?

Duh, I don't know, why don't we assess whether are they smart, talented and provide us with an operational or tactical advantage over our enemies? If yes, then yes. If no, then no. You are now awarded your second rocket scientist certificate for the day (login to the portal and print it for framing).

This is a rarity, but Commanders aren't obligated to do jack shit with people who fail their tests. Yes, it will reflect on the OPR/EPR however they aren't forced to perform any other admin. action, and I've seen several Officers and Enlisted who are highly prized in their unit for walking on water and just generally fucking awesome at their job, and a CC will retain with 5+ failures and no UIF/Art 15/etc. Yes, the CC catches flack for it, and yes, the individual is highly unlikely to make 20 unless they pass at some point because the next CC may not be so bold, but it does happen.

But again, these are extreme cases. I said some and not numerous.

While you can get on profile to avoid running, situps and pushups, you can always get taped. Saw this many times. The naturally skinny folks passed with only the waist measure despite ZERO fitness, and as you'd expect, the fatty's didn't.

FYI, good fucking luck getting an AC exemption with the current AFI. Short of being pregnant, the Airman would probably face MEB along with that AC exemption they wanted so badly.

[Lord Ratner]

That's an anaerobic test in nature.... [words]

I left out the AFT part (1.5 run) since that's fairly self-explanatory. Like I said in my first post, if I were king, this would be the test for people who couldn't pass the waist-measurement on the normal PT test, as a way to distinguish between the fat-asses and the dudes who are mini-hulks.

If you can't do a single pull-up or push-up and you fly a desk, fine, I can (easily) get over having people who are completely out-of-shape in the AF, since many will never need to be, ever. But I can't accept seeing some fat f*ck who can't look at a treadmill without working up a sweat max-performing his blues belt or wearing a flightsuit way past bingo-velcro. It makes us look bad. You don't have to work out to not be fat. Somehow this country managed it 50 years ago, and many other countries are still doing it today. Eat less.

[BitteEinBit]

As I read this, I started to think about how to respond with the various military exemptions. It kept going back and forth in my mind, and all I can think now is, &quot;Holy shit, I would love to hear this argued in court--it would last days with just straight opening arguments.&quot;Compare the ..

.

You are much more knowledgable on exemptions for HIPPA than I am...I can't even begin to think of how this is a HIPPA violation, but I'm also not a lawyer. From what I remember seeing in past referral EPR/OPRs regarding PT test failures, the only verbiage I recall was just that the member "failed to meet minimum standards for physical fitness" or something to that effect. Nowhere does it mention anything about medical conditions. Perhaps in this case it does...I don't know. But I can't see something like this going to court...but rather just the HIPPA gods determining if it is a violation or not. My guess is no....but good on them for trying.

Edited March 23, 2013 by BitteEinBit

[Fuzz]

Have you ever computed your BMI? There are numerous websites that will calculate it for you. For my age (50) and height (6' 2") I am considered "overweight" at 195 lbs (a BMI of 25.4, anything over 25 is considered "overweight"). I am a couple of pounds over that, so despite running three miles three times a week, and exercising three other times a week, I am considered "out of shape" yet I am in better shape than at least half if not two-thirds the uniformed Air Force personnel I see where I work.

By the way, I also wear size 36 waist pants. Not sure what my "official" waist measurement would be as being retired, I honestly don't give a fuck!

Yeah according to BMI I'm severely underweight, I'm not saying its perfect but there needs to be something that is proportional to different body types, not this assinine notion that every one over 35 inch waist is a fatty.

[Guest]

You are much more knowledgable on exemptions for HIPPA than I am...I can't even begin to think of how this is a HIPPA violation, but I'm also not a lawyer. From what I remember seeing in past referral EPR/OPRs regarding PT test failures, the only verbiage I recall was just that the member "failed to meet minimum standards for physical fitness" or something to that effect. Nowhere does it mention anything about medical conditions. Perhaps in this case it does...I don't know. But I can't see something like this going to court...but rather just the HIPPA gods determining if it is a violation or not. My guess is no....but good on them for trying.

The plaintiff won't win, however a good lawyer could create a good case for the client. The law is pretty solid on what the Air Force can do and putting the PT results on the test skirts it slightly, but he can argue that more people than necessary see the EPR, how it isn't restricted to just the rater, additional rater, commander, and MPF, who are really the only people with a need to know.

It also kinda crosses into why we're switching to the DODID# and away from SSN--WAY TOO MANY people know your SSN and have access to find it out. Hell, many people can pull the SSN's and other necessary demographics for the whole freaking base or even the entire freaking DOD and all dependents if they could automate a query process through AHLTA (the big, DOD wide medical system). I'm sure there are other non-medical systems with similar access with equally untrustworthy Airmen. They'd probably get caught but they could certainly start a shitstorm of identity theft if they were willing to risk spending their whole life in Leavenworth.

OK, I'm ranting. God, I'm going to stop typing because this'll go into the current rating culture of the Air Force and validity of the test and the specifics of HIPAA exemption relating to military (who is a commander's designee and who isn't) and military necessity and burden of proof on the plaintiff. Again, long story short, the Air Force would win, but dammit I would love to just hear the argument.

Edited March 23, 2013 by deaddebate

[guineapigfury]

Assuming this was the first fail, they couldn't have sent the Colonel to the remedial PT course with the rest of the chubby/slow airmen? I think watching the Full Bird take his lumps like anyone else would set a better example than resignation. The waist measurement is retarded as is anyone who supports it. If Chief Cody gets it canxed, he will have single handedly justified the existence of his billet.

[jcj]

(I also work with HIPAA alot in my day job)

Agree w/ deaddebate that a HIPAA complaint about this process won't go anywhere. But it would be fun to watch.

The part of HIPAA that may be relevant to this is the part that mandates confidentiality protection for ***protected health information (PHI)*** - in short, medical stuff.

If things like waist size and run times are collected by a fitness coach or unit fitness monitor or whatever the USAF term is (not acting as medical personnel) for a program that's owned by Manpower (not Medical) it's probably not medical stuff and HIPAA doesn't apply. Especially if it's recorded somewhere other than the medical record.

If for some reason it is information protected by HIPAA, HIPAA only protects against unauthorized disclosure. HIPAA allows lots of disclosures to various entities, even prosecutors & law enforcement with a proper subpoena or investigatory demand letter. I'm pretty sure that disclosure to the USAF for the USAF wide fitness program would be an authorized disclosure for USAF members.

So I hope he's not throwing down alot of $ for a lawyer becasue I don't see how it could pass. But I admire the fighting spirit and it would be fun to watch.

Edited March 24, 2013 by jcj