C-17 lands short at Dover

[Spinner]

Ramstein AMCC is by far the most worthless AMCC in existence.

FACT!!!

[osulax05]

Ramstein everything is the worst.

[Chida]

Au Contraire. You must not have ever been to Kadena. Unable to do anything on time. Most times I was there takeoff was at least 1 hour late due to late fuel, late bus, late fleet, etc, despite making an inbound call as soon as we were in radio range (130 NM). Once, went to the window and requested the prime knight package. The guy says, "Oh...well we don't do prime knight for PACAF assets." I says, "Hey no prob, we're actually on an AMC channel so not a PACAF mission today." He says "Oh.... Well we don't support C-130s." And that was the extent of the support from AMCC that day.

[Clayton Bigsby]

Ramstein AMCC is by far the most worthless AMCC in existence.

But they lead the way in uniform compliance! Be an AMC leader today!!!

Always hated that sign.

[AlphaMikeFoxtrot]

Always hated that sign.

As of a month ago that sign was gone.

[MooseBoost]

Story time!

Situation:

At ETAR,

#1 for takeoff is holding on the runway, painting storms off the departure end.

We're holding short of the runway, turned at an angle so we can get a paint as well.

We talk on button 10 and see the same thing, storms right off the departure end; so, obviously, we both decide not to take off.

AMCC calls asking for the reason we are delaying, both aircraft call back saying "holding due to storms/weather off departure end of the runway," AMCC replies "Standby."

--5 minutes later--

AMCC calls back stating "I called tower, they have no issue giving you takeoff clearance, please depart as soon as possible to avoid any further delay"

#1 for departure, "Negative, there is weather we can't fly through in our flight path," AMCC "Sir, tower says they will give you takeoff clearance, there is no reason to delay any further"

Our jet's aircraft commander (old, crusty, & OGV) "AMCC, are you a pilot? Have you been trained in what our capabilities are? Do you realize that we must make decisions based off of what our on-board equipment tells us, and it is telling us WE CANNOT TAKEOFF...don't direct aircrew what to do when you have no authority, may I have you initials?"

and we got no reply after that...

Needless to say, I think both crews were pretty pissed off about AMCC trying to over-ride us...the retardation of AMCC (and TACC at times) is astounding

[Chapter29]

Ramstein AMCC is by far the most worthless AMCC in existence.

FIFY

[Champ Kind]

I remember sitting on the ramp at Kadena on headset and listening to a Birmingham KC-135 griping on the command post freq about how they'd been waiting on fuel for "over an hour" and requesting an updated ETA. All I could do was chuckle and transmit "Welcome to Kadena".

[HeyEng]

It seems that overseas Air Force bases is less about a place to support aircraft and their missions, and more about checking the box for a 2 year overseas assignment. If I had it my way I would turn over places like Ramstein to the Germans and have them run the day to day operations and have 90 day rotations for the maintenance and trans alert.

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[Techsan]

Au Contraire. You must not have ever been to Kadena. Unable to do anything on time. Most times I was there takeoff was at least 1 hour late due to late fuel, late bus, late fleet, etc, despite making an inbound call as soon as we were in radio range (130 NM). Once, went to the window and requested the prime knight package. The guy says, "Oh...well we don't do prime knight for PACAF assets." I says, "Hey no prob, we're actually on an AMC channel so not a PACAF mission today." He says "Oh.... Well we don't support C-130s." And that was the extent of the support from AMCC that day.

True that. This one time, at band camp, I mean Kadena, we were billeted in downtown Naha since all of the on base rooms were full, and the bus was 2 hours late picking us up, then took almost 2 more hours to drive back to the base. Good thing we were just going to Guam with no cargo, but what really pissed me off is when we arrived in Guam we get a fresh Form 59 & see that we were given a crew delay code out of there. I could have seriously kicked a puppy.

[farva]

As of a month ago that sign was gone.

That sign now belongs to me, actually. And who give's a baker's ###### about on-time take-offs?

[ThreeHoler]

True that. This one time, at band camp, I mean Kadena, we were billeted in downtown Naha since all of the on base rooms were full, and the bus was 2 hours late picking us up, then took almost 2 more hours to drive back to the base. Good thing we were just going to Guam with no cargo, but what really pissed me off is when we arrived in Guam we get a fresh Form 59 & see that we were given a crew delay code out of there. I could have seriously kicked a puppy.

Wow, you're old. All the kids these days call it a "G2 cut."

[Day Man]

That sign now belongs to me, actually.

Prove it!

[Azimuth]

FIFY

Hickman, Spang, and Mildenhall (when they had one), always were helpful and I've never had issues.

I saw a -17 crew wait at the window at Ramstein for 10-minutes trying to get someone to help them. The AC picked up the phone, which auto dialed the number to the A1C who was 10ft away, who then told him it'll be a 15-minute wait before he could help them. He was busy checking Facebook.

[AlphaMikeFoxtrot]

I saw a -17 crew wait at the window at Ramstein for 10-minutes trying to get someone to help them. The AC picked up the phone, which auto dialed the number to the A1C who was 10ft away, who then told him it'll be a 15-minute wait before he could help them. He was busy checking Facebook.

It takes me less time to log on to the crappy computer outside of ETAR AMCC and print my own paperwork than wait on them to do it. I simply call them, sit at the computer, get my sh!t, then call them back to let them know we're on our way and to please pass our block 10 to MOC. Worthless is an understatement.

[xaarman]

https://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20131205/NEWS/312050023/Crew-inexperience-fatigue-led-C-17-runway-mishap

Not an AMC guy, but this caught me off guard:

The investigation found that the experience level at Charleston has been “steadily decreasing,” and that the 17th Airlift Squadron is undermanned in terms of both pilots and co-pilots.

Weren't C-17s overmanned like crazy like not too long ago? Talk about the pendulum swinging, not that I'm surprised.

[Champ Kind]

I wonder if they mean something that I feel to be true. "Experience level" could mean that we have people that are qualified on paper as IPs, etc, but lack a great deal of real-world experience because they were upgraded quickly for a variety of reasons.

[NotADude]

Quote: "In July, Air Mobility Command launched its “Fatigue Modeling” program after years of development, said Col. Mark Hale, an expert on aviation operational risk management.

“This program is a step forward in understanding and alerting our crews and our command and control system to aircrew fatigue challenges during mission planning and execution,” Hale said in an email."

Here's a hint: a 22-hour duty day=tired pilots. give me money now!

[Fuzz]

Quote: "In July, Air Mobility Command launched its “Fatigue Modeling” program after years of development, said Col. Mark Hale, an expert on aviation operational risk management.

“This program is a step forward in understanding and alerting our crews and our command and control system to aircrew fatigue challenges during mission planning and execution,” Hale said in an email."

Here's a hint: a 22-hour duty day=tired pilots. give me money now!

"Signed off to high by TACC DO, have a safe flight", as mentioned before here nothing will change till they actually start using these tools.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Fuzz

[Royal]

"Signed off to high by TACC DO, have a safe flight", as mentioned before here nothing will change till they actually start using these tools.

ORM is such a joke. It should be completely transparent to aircrew unless we need to actually use it for safety of flight issues. How many times have we said that here?

Edited December 6, 2013 by Royal

[Champ Kind]

ORM out. Get all your ducks in a row along with a detailed account of your timeline leading up to the decision. Have a plan as to how you are going to keep the mission moving despite the delay.

If nothing else, it's OK to say, "You know what (,sir?), this just doesn't feel right, and I don't want to be like those guys that landed short at Dover."

[Fuzz]

ORM is such a joke. It should be completely transparent to aircrew unless we need to actually use for safety of flight issues. How many times have we said that here?

Agreed, I meant "they" as in TACC.

Although on a positive note, because of these incidents our OG out here at TCM managed to get us east coast crew rests on the depositioning legs home vs. flying all the way home. So far its been pretty nice to only have a 5 hour flight home, and land sometime in the afternoon/early evening.

[Royal]

Agreed, I meant "they" as in TACC.

Yeah, man, my complaint was directed towards them.

During an AIB, will someone from TACC shoulder any of the responsibility if that person signed off on ORM that was in the highest category? Do they even get talked to about it?

"Well, the pilots took the jet even though they were in the ORM "ultra-extreme" category; better just chalk this one up to pilot error/poor pilot judgment."

[FUSEPLUG]

"Well, the pilots took the jet even though they were in the ORM "ultra-extreme" category; better just chalk this one up to pilot error/poor pilot judgment."

Man, I wonder what color "ultra-extreme" would be on an ORM worksheet. Plaid?

[Skitzo]

Man, I wonder what color "ultra-extreme" would be on an ORM worksheet. Plaid?

Isn't plaid reserved for ludicrous ORM?

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