Navy Jet Attrite to ANG? AF Reserves?

[AIM2013]

Sorry if this has been covered before, but my prior search of the forums did not reveal much of what I'm about to ask.

I'm a Navy Jet student who is facing a possible attrition down the road. Still in training, but seems probable as I'm just not getting carrier landings down cold and have grades on the verge as a result. I'm 28, had decent primary grades, and am interested in still flying for the military in some capacity if things don't work out here. Has anyone heard of any protocol regarding a Naval Aviator attrite or a DOR applying to the guard? Does attrition or DOR pretty much nuke any chances a guard unit or the Air Force Reserves would pick me up? And of course what of the age limits? Hate to turn this into a "What % chance" kind of question, but would like to at least know if it's remotely possible or just plane crazy talk.

Again hope this wasn't covered in detail previously, otherwise my googlefu is obviously unsat.

[herkbum]

Can't provide a reg quote (because I'm too lazy to go digging for the info), but I seem to remember that a DOR would prevent you from getting another flying position in the ANG. Don't remember/know how a failure out of a program would affect you. Years ago, we had a guy come to us that had washed out of F-15s due to the inability to inflight refuel. Age could be an issue, but it appears that you have already completed a UPT type program with the Navy, is that correct? If that is the case, you might be ok to attend an FTU. I will let other more knowledgeable folks pick it up from here.

[TacAirCoug]

It might be possible, but school slots (not to mention money) are scarce and many units would be wary of hiring someone who is at a higher risk of failing to complete training.

[Termy]

Won't the Navy just send you to a P-3/737/non-carrier based aircraft?

[AIM2013]

Herkbum, Yes I've completed what would be a UPT equivalent.

Termy, it seems in my case it's been voiced that outcome is unlikely for what I can only guess is our own fiscal challenges/seat availability's.

And to be honest, I'm starting to sense what everyone has always told me in regards to finding the right community to be apart of. The Navy while great for some, is wearing down any hope I have of enjoying a career. Perhaps it's a case of "grass is greener" syndrome, but from the personal conversations I've had with some Air Force friends, I'm thinking (hoping?) I'd be a better fit elsewhere.

I appreciate the replies everyone.

[RTB]

My knowledge of the navy training pipeline is dated but if I remember correctly, 'back in the day' jet track guys got their wings after the carrier phase was complete. If you 'attrite', will you have your wings? or will you be short of wings? That may be a factor in getting picked up for an AFRC or ANG unit. Graduated with wings generally = trainable in another jet without much hassle. No wings pretty much means you'd have to go through AF UPT. But again, my info is dated circa 1997 when a Navy buddy from Tweets went to Kingsville and got his wings after the T-45 carrier phase was complete.

[Bergman]

I would spend some time on www.e-publishing.af.mil reading AFI 36-2205. It talks about eligibility for flying training. It may not be a home run, but a good place to start at least.

Regardless of what the reg says, IMHO it would be better to attrite rather than DOR. At least you have a good explanation for it and can say, "I busted my ass as long as they let me, but ultimately boat flying wasn't in the cards" rather than, "I wasn't good at it so I quit"

It is not uncommon to find IFF/fighter FTU washouts in the AF heavy world. If you already have wings your chances with a heavy unit would be decent.

[BolterKing]

My knowledge of the navy training pipeline is dated but if I remember correctly, 'back in the day' jet track guys got their wings after the carrier phase was complete. If you 'attrite', will you have your wings? or will you be short of wings? That may be a factor in getting picked up for an AFRC or ANG unit. Graduated with wings generally = trainable in another jet without much hassle. No wings pretty much means you'd have to go through AF UPT. But again, my info is dated circa 1997 when a Navy buddy from Tweets went to Kingsville and got his wings after the T-45 carrier phase was complete.

This is accurate. While the OP has finished Primary, you haven't "graduated" until you get your wings. In the jet pipe that means carrier qual'd.

To the OP, keep busting your ass, hit the sims (drag your LSO over kicking and screaming if need be), and keep a positive attitude. If you attrite from the boat, having the command in your corner will be your best chance at moving to a different pipeline (P-3/8, Helos). Also, have your LSO go over LSO NATOPS with you, and show you just how the lens works. i.e. Just how big each cell is at the start, in the middle, and at the ramp. You'll realize just how small/fast your corrections need to be. IIRC full high to full low is 21' of altitude at the start.

Yours would be a messy situation in the fact that you're already commissioned, so you'd need to be able to lat txfr (basically resign, and swear back into the Guard)... and if you don't have your wings be able to pick up a UPT slot. Age restrictions will be a player as well as whatever service obligation remains and getting big Navy to release you. If you already have your wings, it makes things easier as you can apply for an ARB board but getting your wings will require you to fulfill whatever service obligation your pipeline yields.

In a word, I'd say ANG is a far fetched option if not impossible in your situation.

Final thought, ball flying (yuck it up fvckers) is an aquired feel. Get the jet trimmed for on-speed prior to the abeam, make sure your abeam distance is consistent, and use the same angle of bank off the abeam to get you to a good start. 450-500' at the 90, 380' at the 45 (I haven't trapped in a few years, my gouge may be a little off). It's all left hand. You should be checking your altitude wickets all the way around the turn to KNOW where the ball will be on the lens prior to ever rolling into the groove, it should never be a surprise. Total instrument turn, velocity vector "tail and wing" just touching the bottom of the horizon bar is a good place to start for your rate of descent around the turn increasing to 600-700 FPM as you come through the 45. When you roll out in the groove, make your power off correction to establish your rate of decent (remember you're rolling wings level, lift increases, so a power off correction is needed to keep the ROD. The velocity vector is gouge here) and then reset to your neutural power point. Get/keep the lens one ball high, bring it down to the middle, then push it back up again. Small, quick corrections. A cenetered ball is destined to go low so never leave it there. Your happy place is 1/2-one ball high, if you get under powered it will settle centered and you push it back up again. If you go high, pull power. If the ball stablizes high, that's your neutual point. Pull a little more. The second it starts to come back down stop it, and recenter to your neutural power point. Three part corrections, all the way down the groove. Remember every line up correction requires power as you're losing vertical component of left. A line up correction without a touch of power will result in a settle every time. Look long for line up (end of the LA, the "T"), and back to the ball. "Ball, ball, lineup. Ball, Ball, Lineup." Say it out loud if you need to, lots of guys do.

4.0 ball flyers never fly a centered ball, they crest it and bounce it off center. Fly the ball, don't let it fly you.

Edited May 31, 2013 by BolterKing

[HerkFE]

Ball flying is an aquired feel. It's all left hand. KNOW where the ball will be prior to ever rolling into the groove, it should never be a surprise. When you roll in the groove...one ball high, bring it down to the middle, then push it back up again. Small, quick corrections. A cenetered ball is destined to go low so never leave it there. Your happy place is 1/2-one ball high, if you get under powered you push it back up again. Pull a little more. The second it starts to come back down stop it... all the way down the groove. "Ball, ball, Ball, Ball," Say it out loud if you need to, lots of guys do, they crest it and bounce it off center. Fly the ball.

Yep, I'm bored at work.

Edited June 2, 2013 by HerkFE

[Nineline]

Yep, I'm bored at work.

Oh, I see what you did there.

-9-

[ATIS]

Hang tough AIM2013. Helo's/MPA may be an option, but could be a challenge depending on the demand signal of each community (that is if you still want to fly). 'Bolter' hit on a major point, try to have the command in your corner no matter what. They won't be if you cut the strings and slack. If you truly bust your balls and make the attempt, they should see that, which should assist in whatever transition you make (in our out of the Navy). While probably not your first preference, I knew NFO's (in all communities) that DQ'd at the boat (either in the training command or at the RAG), and came back to still serve. Our squadron MO DQ'd in A-4's at the boat, came back as a NFO...same with one of my RAG instructors. It's an option (WSO/ECMO/E-2 Mole/MPA). Fly safe

[guineapigfury]

RPAs will hire UPT washouts, just saying.

[AIM2013]

Appreciate all the replies, especially big thanks BolterKing. I have a gouge book and that whole paragraph you wrote is in there now. Ball flying and pattern is looking alot better than before (still needs improvement though) and I'm still in the fight and doing whatever I humanly can. Guess at the end of the day if my best wont cut it, then it's time to move on and find something I'm good at elsewhere. Yes, I've even considered RPA's....at least the money civilian side looks good there, but might be tough justifying the flight suit and ray-bans everyday.

[OZZ]

Good afternoon Guys,

 Quite a bit farther in the future on this post. I found myself in the same situation last year. I was an E-2/C-2 flight school student and made it through Primary and Intermediate multi engine training with little difficulty but I had a VERY hard time staying ahead of the Jet in Instruments. I ultimately wound up attriting in the instrument rating phase of training. I gave it everything I had too! I was in the OPS office signing up for practice sims every day, trying to get backseat hops if I could, and bumming unused sims every Friday just to get some practice. Even through the T-45 OBOGS stand down (Paid vacation by Navy Flight school terms) I was getting after it on the daily. Unfortunately I eventually attrited in Advanced T-45 jet training due to "Inconsistencies in instrument conditions". To make matters worse, Navy Flight training as a whole was still recovering from the  OBOGS stand down and all the other pipelines were full, so no one was getting ANY  pipeline transfers to other airframes.  After literally waiting for 7 months to find out my final verdict. I wound up re designating  as a General Aviation Officer and I currently work for a VFA squadron right now.  I did however put my best foot forward and continued flying on the civilian side to maintain my currency and built time. That's my story. 

    A year has passed since then, but right now I am still exploring the possibilities of flying again. The end result is flying for the airlines (at some point) but with only 300 hours that is an incredibly long road from now. I still want to serve, but its pretty gut wrenching being near aircraft and NOT getting to fly them. If I have any shot at getting in the air again I'll go for it.  From what I have read from you guys it appears to be a long shot, but a shots a shot no matter how long it is. I'm currently working on my Commercial / CFI / CFI-II and gaining a lot of experience working for the fighter community and I'm hoping it will help my chances of being selected. From what I understand, since I did not get my wings I would have to go through UPT and fly the T-6 again and then T-1's. As for getting hired , Would any of you guys know if there is a different process I would have to proceed through since I am AD Navy? Does my Attrition disqualify me? Is it waiver-able?  It seems like there would be quite a few Admin hurdles trying to go from AD Navy  to Guard... I also just promoted to O-3 and I do not know if that would affect my UPT candidacy as well. My command here is very supportive of my goals and they are ready to help me in any way they can. I am just trying to find the best plan of action so I don't go into this blindly and spin my wheels. Have any of you guys heard of any success stories similar to mine? 

Thanks

~OZZ

[brabus]

You can transfer at the end of your navy commitment into the guard/reserve, or you can fully separate with honorable discharge and then subsequently join the guard/reserve later. I’ve seen it done multiple times, but sorry, can’t point you to exact reg.  That said, I’m talking about guys who were rated pilots in the Navy. I’m not sure if you can do another formal flying course after washing out of another...at least without a waiver. Your first step is find a unit that will entertain hiring you for a UPT slot, which will likely be very difficult. I don’t think any fighter unit would even consider it, can’t speak for heavy units. If you are able to convince a unit it’s worth the risk to send you to UPT, they will help you navigate the required paperwork to make it happen.

[dotonfire]

@OZZ I attrited from Navy Maritime right at the NATOPS checkride in advanced. Tried to go WSO but CNATRA said no slots. Tried to redes at a POCR board but RIF'ed. Got put in the IRR as a General Aviation officer (most useless desginator, let me tell you) and got a contractor job as a flight test engineer on Hornets, so I totally understand that feeling of being so close, but not flying. I started applying to ANG and AFRC units and got picked up for WSO in a reserve unit. If you really want to fly commercially, WSO probably isn't the way to go, though.

I have heard of guys who attrited getting picked up for UPT (even through an unsponsored board), so it absolutely is possible, though it's a lot of work to convince them you're good to go and are worth the risk. I don't believe I was competitive for UPT because of my washout. I did have to get a waiver for the attrition, as well as one for total commissioned service (>5 years, and I'm going on 7 now). It's a long, painful process going from Navy IRR to USAFR, so be prepared for it to take over a year. I'm not sure of the details of transferring from AD Navy to guard or reserve, but it's worth talking to a recruiter. 

Good luck and feel free to PM with any other questions! 

[CharlieHotel47]

If it all fails, the Army will take ya as an Apache WO. All you need is a pulse and a can do attitude.


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[Yeeyee]

7 hours ago, CharlieHotel47 said:

If it all fails, the Army will take ya as an Apache WO. All you need is a pulse and a can do attitude.


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Active duty or army guard? I’d be interested in flying apaches

[CharlieHotel47]

Guard. From what I understand, AD aviation is like a 6 yr jail sentence. I was fortunate to fly 47s and stayed away from the gun dudes. SC apaches are always hiring. They just got back from a 18 months deployment and there’s usually a massive exodus of pilots.


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[OZZ]

[mention=80510]OZZ[/mention] I attrited from Navy Maritime right at the NATOPS checkride in advanced. Tried to go WSO but CNATRA said no slots. Tried to redes at a POCR board but RIF'ed. Got put in the IRR as a General Aviation officer (most useless desginator, let me tell you) and got a contractor job as a flight test engineer on Hornets, so I totally understand that feeling of being so close, but not flying. I started applying to ANG and AFRC units and got picked up for WSO in a reserve unit. If you really want to fly commercially, WSO probably isn't the way to go, though.
I have heard of guys who attrited getting picked up for UPT (even through an unsponsored board), so it absolutely is possible, though it's a lot of work to convince them you're good to go and are worth the risk. I don't believe I was competitive for UPT because of my washout. I did have to get a waiver for the attrition, as well as one for total commissioned service (>5 years, and I'm going on 7 now). It's a long, painful process going from Navy IRR to USAFR, so be prepared for it to take over a year. I'm not sure of the details of transferring from AD Navy to guard or reserve, but it's worth talking to a recruiter. 
Good luck and feel free to PM with any other questions! 

Thanks for the insight, I knew I couldnt be the only one. Thats my designator now! I figured it would be a pretty arduous process but it beats being on the ground for 5+ years. I have been keeping current with my civilian ratings and Im pretty close on my commercial so I guess that might help my case a little bit. From what I understand theres pretty much a waiver for anything right?


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[Yeeyee]

On 8/11/2019 at 6:22 AM, CharlieHotel47 said:

Guard. From what I understand, AD aviation is like a 6 yr jail sentence. I was fortunate to fly 47s and stayed away from the gun dudes. SC apaches are always hiring. They just got back from a 18 months deployment and there’s usually a massive exodus of pilots.


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Do you have any leads or contact info? I'd be interested in flying the Apaches. I'm a non prior by the way.

[Lawman]

On 8/14/2019 at 5:20 PM, Yeeyee said:

Do you have any leads or contact info? I'd be interested in flying the Apaches. I'm a non prior by the way.

Find an Army recruiter, inform them you are only interested in the WOFT program. Go through as many “ah man that’s a tall order” BS excuses as you have to and don’t be convinced to do something stupid like enlist or go to OCS (where there is no guarantee of aviation branch). 

 

There are 3 total guard units, and unlike the Air Guard they don’t so much hire from outside with the pledge games played for college degree holders. They recruit the locked on E5 in the guard unit who they know and trust. They’ll also go away the second big Army can win the fight to get another CAB back. The Guard barely got to keep those 3 battalions.

 

Right now Active Apache Manning is around 72%. They are hemorrhaging people across aviation but the 64 specifically and stripping out active units of IPs to try and pump up the flight line. If you really want to fly the 64, there is no better time to get into it. 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Lawman