"Flaming" guys in uniform?

[pitts2112]

What some factions of our society are unwilling to acknowledge is that there are clearly defined areas of right and wrong. Just because something feels good, is the path of least resistance or is just what someone wants to do no matter what doesn’t make it right. They can still do it if they want, but we as a society don’t have to support them.

If you are a Christian (which I am), you know the bible says same-sex unions are wrong. If you’re not, then just look at nature. Same sex stuff isn’t happening with animals. Our reproductive process doesn’t support same sex. It's an unnatural aberration. We feel disgusted when we see two guys kiss because it’s unnatural and our normal instincts to be attracted to a woman are in control.

So, there’s obviously some genetic or mental issue going on with a gay person to give them this same-sex attraction. They don’t just decide to deviate from the natural norm on a whim. For whatever reason, God made them that way and it’s a cross they have to bear. I see them as no different than someone with an alcohol or drug addiction.

The main difference is that some people can justify accepting gays and all that comes with it because it’s about something socially acceptable like love instead of addiction. There’s no one standing up fighting for addicts rights because most of society has acknowledged that their behavior is destructive and they have a problem they need help with. A larger portion of our society has acknowledged the same thing about same sex unions but you wouldn’t know it thanks to political correctness and the media. The mere suggestion that there might actually be something physically, genetically or mentally wrong to cause same sex attraction makes those on the other side of the argument lose their minds. Forget suggesting that someone in that situation might be helped to move past it or that they may just have to deal with a life of abstinence (like recovering addicts). Oh no! Everyone deserves love, right?

If two men or two women want to be a couple, live together, etc. I could care less. Just like I really don’t care if someone wants to drink themselves to death or stick a needle in their arm every day. It’s their right to choose to do that.

However, they shouldn’t expect society to pat them on the back and tell them we all think what they’re doing is just fine by allowing official marriages, adoptions, tax filing status, etc. No innocent child should be thrown into a situation via adoption where they are denied a father or mother because of the selfish desires of two misguided people. I don’t care if they serve in our military but, I will have a problem with some guy being a “dependent” of another male service member because they think they’re married. Do we give addicts tax breaks because they can’t work or encourage their destructive, unnatural behavior? No. We offer them help to stop and support and encourage them to turn their lives around.

There’s no way this situation can be compared to racial integration. There’s nothing unnatural or deviant about someone’s heritage or race. Just because the gay movement, Hollywood and a bunch of feel-good liberal politicians are trying to force this issue into the mainstream and make everyone believe it’s the “new normal” doesn’t mean it has to be so.

Do you have any legitimate arguments against homosexuality that aren't based on a literal interpretation of a work of mythology?

[Gravedigger]

"Any national military force composed of Sodomites should send chills down the backs of other nations. The Sodomite Supremicists in full military regalia and well armed with nuclear weapons are coming to visit while filled with Gay Pride.

I know some sodomites that aren't gay. Sometimes they even have sex with the lights on!

[matmacwc]

Do you have any legitimate arguments against homosexuality that aren't based on a literal interpretation of a work of mythology?

Yet again, an opinion, therefore not a good argument.

[pitts2112]

Yet again, an opinion, therefore not a good argument.

You're right. You've got me there. I can't argue against the overwhelming wealth of scientific evidence that the Bible is actually completely true.

[Steve Holt!]

Do you have any legitimate arguments against homosexuality that aren't based on a literal interpretation of a work of mythology?

Doesn't contribute to the propagation of the human species.

Continue

Edited July 1, 2013 by Steve Holt!

[Gravedigger]

Neither does infertility. That's it, sterile people can't get married anymore.

Continue.

[matmacwc]

You're right. You've got me there. I can't argue against the overwhelming wealth of scientific evidence that the Bible is actually completely true.

This time you have a mostly fact, they have proved that some of it is solid fact, but most is on faith. It is your opinion it isn't real, prove it otherwise, nobody can unless you invent a time machine. If you a correct, then I spent alot of time with good people believing in something that was false that bettered me and my families life. If I am correct, then eternity is going to be a tough road for people that do not believe, not the only reason I believe BTW.

This shouldn't be a forum on religion, but the regulations our ground pounding (sts) brothers so believe in, and princess fairies in uniform.

[pitts2112]

This time you have a mostly fact, they have proved that some of it is solid fact, but most is on faith. It is your opinion it isn't real, prove it otherwise, nobody can unless you invent a time machine. If you a correct, then I spent alot of time with good people believing in something that was false that bettered me and my families life. If I am correct, then eternity is going to be a tough road for people that do not believe, not the only reason I believe BTW.

This shouldn't be a forum on religion, but the regulations our ground pounding (sts) brothers so believe in, and princess fairies in uniform.

And religion is a fine thing until it gets forced on those that don't believe it, when it's used as a form of judgement and the basis for depriving someone else of human or civil rights. While you use it as a guide to live as a better person, that's fantastic. When you use it to judge and oppress others, that's when I have a problem with it.

As you said, this isn't a thread about religion, but it is an interesting point that nearly all arguments against marriage equality are based on the Bible and damn little else.

[WAG]

it is an interesting point that nearly all arguments against marriage equality are based on the Bible and damn little else.

So I guess all those civilizations and cultures predating Christianity that opposed homosexuality issues were also relying on the Bible. What about today? Are other non-Judeo-Christian countries throughout this world such as Japan relying on the Bible too?

Edited July 1, 2013 by WAG

[Day Man]

for the thumpers: if you were born and raised in Iran, would you still believe in your Judeo-Christian religion?

[WAG]

for the thumpers: if you were born and raised in Iran, would you still believe in your Judeo-Christian religion?

What is a thumper?

[Rmarsh]

What is a thumper?

not sure if sarcasm, but bible thumper.

And a serious question- for those arguing against, is the crux of this debate whether you know about someone being gay in the military and having a fundemental issue with the implications of an integrated DOD, regardless of someone's outward mannerisms, or the discomfort of being around over the top, flamboyantly gay people? To ask another way, is it OK for someone to be gay if they are a bro, or a PJ who has x number of saves, or a viper pilot who also happens to be gay and doesn't throw it in anyone's face? Just asking if there is a distinction between the two.

[magnetfreezer]

for the thumpers: if you were born and raised in Iran, would you still believe in your Judeo-Christian religion?

If they did, they'd get jailed or executed. At least they're not in an intolerant place like the US though.

[Troublemaker]

To ask another way, is it OK for someone to be gay if they are a bro, or a PJ who has x number of saves, or a viper pilot who also happens to be gay and doesn't throw it in anyone's face?

It's never OK to be gay. If you're asking if it's OK to have a great PJ or Viper pilot serve our country and work along side me in the USAF and be my friend, then yes - absolutely. If he wants me to tell him that I think the decisions he's making with respect to his sexuality are OK with me, I won't be able to do that. Anymore than I would be able to do the same for a friend with a drinking problem. I don't stop being his friend or trying to help him if I can, I just can't condone some of the choices he's making. I also shouldn't be expected to be "OK" with the fact that some of my tax dollars and public laws/policies are being used to support his choices. There's right and wrong in this world - free will and our country's freedoms allow us to choose wrong if we want. The mere fact that a minority of people in our society want to do something doesn't mean the majority have to support them or ignore our beliefs.

[kchsload]

Damn shame the internet wasn't around during the Jim Crow era and civil rights movement, I'd love to be able to look back and see what the lay men of my father's and grandfather's generation would have written on forums like these about those issues. Much like our kids will be able to at us on BO.net, and wonder wtf were some of us were thinking and getting our information from.

[Flaco]

It's never OK to be gay. If you're asking if it's OK to have a great PJ or Viper pilot serve our country and work along side me in the USAF and be my friend, then yes - absolutely. If he wants me to tell him that I think the decisions he's making with respect to his sexuality are OK with me, I won't be able to do that. Anymore than I would be able to do the same for a friend with a drinking problem. I don't stop being his friend or trying to help him if I can, I just can't condone some of the choices he's making. I also shouldn't be expected to be "OK" with the fact that some of my tax dollars and public laws/policies are being used to support his choices. There's right and wrong in this world - free will and our country's freedoms allow us to choose wrong if we want. The mere fact that a minority of people in our society want to do something doesn't mean the majority have to support them or ignore our beliefs.

Well said. The unfortunate part is that the majority (53%) now accepts homosexuality as moral behavior. Those of us that believe it is wrong are now in the minority, so we will have to accept the will of the majority when it comes to legislation and public policy.

That is until we figure out that moral relativism is a fraud and drop the rainbow moral paint pallet in favor of a little more black and white. It probably won't happen in our life times, but it will come back. It always does.

[Troublemaker]

Damn shame the internet wasn't around during the Jim Crow era and civil rights movement, I'd love to be able to look back and see what the lay men of my father's and grandfather's generation would have written on forums like these about those issues.

Apples and oranges. Equating being gay and being black is an insult to our African American citizens and those who fought that fight. A choice someone makes in how they behave and actions they take can't be equated with someone's race. The gay side of this would love you to make that connection but you'd be wrong.

[WAG]

Moral Relativism

“You have your way, I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, it does not exist."

- Nietzsche:

“If man is a product of evolution, one species among others, in a universe without purpose, then man’s option is to live for himself”

- Paul Kurtz, The Humanist Alternative

Hmmm, I guess that makes sense... if you live alone on an island and never had to interact with another human being. Sad place that end game must be...

[Day Man]

Hmmm, I guess that makes sense... if you live alone on an island and never had to interact with another human being. Sad place that end game must be...

I think it's sad that you need the threat of "eternal damnation" to be a decent guy. Religion is inherently selfish..."I have to do good so I can get rewarded." I bet a lot less people would participate if there was no carrot on the end of a stick. I know a lot of guys who do shitty stuff Mon-Sat that justify it by confessing and throwing a few bucks in the pot on Sundays.

Edit: I was wondering when we were gonna have a good ol' fashioned religion debate on here...new thread anyone?

Edited July 1, 2013 by day man

[Vertigo]

Taking moral cues from the animal kingdom is absurd..

Taking moral cues from a book that allows slavery, stoning of people, bashing babies against rocks, rape, genocide, etc is just as absurd... or even more so.

There’s a reason the Bible isn’t used as the code of law anymore. That was tried, and it led to hundreds of years of oppression and misery culminating in the Inquisition. That wasn’t an accident, an anomaly, or the fault of a less-evolved, less-knowledgeable culture. That’s the path the Bible leads to. Immorality.

[pitts2112]

What is most depressing about this is that, aside from religion as a justification for bigotry on this subject, the rationale for seeing homosexuality as wrong is that it's presumed to be a choice rather than something inborn.

Seriously? Think about that for a second. Do people really believe someone would CHOOSE to suffer a life of persecution, verbal and physical abuse, enforced secrecy, and all the other horrible things society inflicts upon them? What's the payoff, to screw another man in the ass? Doesn't seem like much of a return on investment to me, no matter how good the sex is. With the life most homosexuals are forced to live with, it's incredible that anyone can believe that that is a concious choice.

The comparison of a person being black to a person being homosexual is entirely legitimate. Both are inborn traits.

[WAG]

Taking moral cues from a book that allows slavery, stoning of people, bashing babies against rocks, rape, genocide, etc is just as absurd... or even more so.

There’s a reason the Bible isn’t used as the code of law anymore. That was tried, and it led to hundreds of years of oppression and misery culminating in the Inquisition. That wasn’t an accident, an anomaly, or the fault of a less-evolved, less-knowledgeable culture. That’s the path the Bible leads to. Immorality.

<Sigh>....and just when I thought this discussion was getting into the more important subjects about morality and truth. It's back to this talking point again. I guess its one step forward two steps back on this forum. So from where do we derive our sense of absolute right and wrong, again?

Edited July 1, 2013 by WAG

[Troublemaker]

I think it's sad that you need the threat of "eternal damnation" to be a decent guy. Religion is inherently selfish..."I have to do good so I can get rewarded." I bet a lot less people would participate if there was no carrot on the end of a stick.

Lumping the Christian faith into the general melting pot of religion isn't really accurate. Religion (in terms of Christianity) is more about how you choose to practice. Being a Catholic, Methodist or Baptist is your religion. None are required - you can choose to follow Christ outside a particular denomination. Simple Christianity is nothing like what you just posted above. There's no amount of good anyone can do to be "rewarded". The reward you speak of, I assume, is forgiveness of sins and eternal life with God after you die. That "reward" is free and you can do nothing to earn it. All you have to do is believe and ask God to forgive your sins. Any good you choose to do is to make God's kingdom a better place, help believers and non-believers alike or any number of other reasons. You can't "lose" your salvation once you accept it and nothing you do can help you earn it. So, unfortunately, your whole post really makes no sense and shows how little you really understand about Christianity. Perhaps you should get some accurate facts and look into it yourself. You won't regret it. Edited July 1, 2013 by Troublemaker

[Troublemaker]

Taking moral cues from a book that allows slavery, stoning of people, bashing babies against rocks, rape, genocide, etc is just as absurd... or even more so.

There’s a reason the Bible isn’t used as the code of law anymore. That was tried, and it led to hundreds of years of oppression and misery culminating in the Inquisition. That wasn’t an accident, an anomaly, or the fault of a less-evolved, less-knowledgeable culture. That’s the path the Bible leads to. Immorality.

The Bible doesn't "allow" any of the things you listed. You are referring to information in the Old Testament in which there were societies that practiced some (but not all) of the things you listed. Just because an event in the Bible has those types of behaviors in it, doesn't mean the Bible is condoning such behavior. Often the Old Testament is used as a contrast to what occurred after Christ was born, walked among us and died sacrificially for us. In the Old Testament, when someone sinned, they were required to atone for those sins by sacrificing an animal in the form of a burnt offering to God. The animal symbolically took on the sins of the person. The Bible contrasts such ancient practices with God's ultimate and final decision to deal with our sins by sending his Son to symbolically take on all our sins and die for us. I won't argue that many men and women have misused and misinterpreted the information in the Bible over the centuries and caused great suffering and pain. That's on them and not due to some defect in the Bible or it's real teachings. Try actually reading it.

[Troublemaker]

With the life most homosexuals are forced to live with, it's incredible that anyone can believe that that is a concious choice.

The comparison of a person being black to a person being homosexual is entirely legitimate. Both are inborn traits.

I don't think it's a conscious choice. I do think they were born that way. How else could someone deviate so far from normal, natural behavior? Homosexuals, addicts, alcoholics, pedophiles are all born with a predisposition toward their particular problem. I don’t see anyone jumping up and down fighting for a pedophile’s rights because they were born that way. Just because you are born with a deviant, destructive problem like those doesn’t mean you just get to “go with it”. You can claim homosexuality is equivalent to race until you’re blue in the face but it won’t make it so – one is a choice to pursue base desires in direct contrast to right and wrong while the other is simply a matter of how you look.