Asiana 777 Crash at SFO

[HercDude]

Korean Air can't be shown up by Asiana.....

PSIF/FTD/BO/BKIH

[Right Seat Driver]

Korean Air can't be shown up by Asiana.....

In the flare go-around!

[pcola]

Korean Air can't be shown up by Asiana.....

I was sitting on the mil ramp at Hickam last week, waiting on mx, and watching all the airlines land on 08L. Of course, we're grading all the landings, when along comes this baby blue 767. We were all like "holy shit, what's he doing? Look at that! Whoa! Shit!" The flare looked similar to the one in the linked video, except he ended up stopping the wing rock, but must have gotten slow as hell in the flare, because the mains ended up touching down with a very high deck angle, very nearly a tail scrape. As the jet went by, I was not at all shocked to read the logo, Korean Air. I wish I had my iphone video running.

[brabus]

Korean pilots failing at flying, shocking.

[disgruntledemployee]

The new approach lights installed at San Francisco International Airport after the Asiana Crash...

But its in English!

[Spinner]

But its in Engrish!

FIFY...

[hobbitcid]

Interesting review of South Korean Airlines incidents, safety and the issue of culture - very CRM...

https://www.voanews.com/content/aviation-experts-question-whether-culture-had-role-in-asiana-crash/1730757.html

[addict]

Happened 2 weeks ago. How did it not get into this thread?

https://www.theguardi...ershoots-runway

Edited August 18, 2013 by addict

[rancormac]

Happened 2 weeks ago. How did it not get into this thread?

https://www.theguardi...ershoots-runway

Wei Tu Wong

[drewpey]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNfDUTGOEj0

[Grabby]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNfDUTGOEj0

Every time I see a clip of this accident, I'm dumbfounded more didn't die. Boeing makes a hell of a good product.

[MD]

Every time I see a clip of this accident, I'm dumbfounded more didn't die. Boeing makes a hell of a good product.

Would be interesting to hear the CVR of the UAL 747 taxiing up to the hold line there.

[Breckey]

[Prozac]

Video doesn't get into the fact that most Boeing pilots thought they were speed protected in FLCH mode. I've spoken to instructors who thought the thrust levers should come up in this situation and Boeing's own manuals would lead one to believe that should be the case. Absolutely DOES NOT absolve these airmen from their responsibility to maintain basic flying skills, but I'll be surprised if Boeing comes out unscathed. I still prefer Boeing's autoflight systems over anything else BTW.

[TreeA10]

I've never seen anyone use FLCH on final in 8000 hours on Boeing jets. Could be an Airbus-ism. Anybody with Airbus time got an opinion?

[Prozac]

Very true and seems to go against Asiana's own SOPs as the missed approach altitude was dialed into the window before FLCH was selected. This caused the airplane to climb when the intent was to expedite the descent, making a marginal situation worse. In my opinion, the go-around should have been called there. The crew was obviously deficient in their understanding of the automation. However, even if they had the Boeing flight manual memorized (and it's my understanding that this is almost a requirement at many Asian carriers), it wouldn't have helped them out once they selected FLCH.

[Lord Ratner]

Video doesn't get into the fact that most Boeing pilots thought they were speed protected in FLCH mode. I've spoken to instructors who thought the thrust levers should come up in this situation and Boeing's own manuals would lead one to believe that should be the case. Absolutely DOES NOT absolve these airmen from their responsibility to maintain basic flying skills, but I'll be surprised if Boeing comes out unscathed. I still prefer Boeing's autoflight systems over anything else BTW.

Not a factor in this case I think. Speed wasn't an issue when the pilot selected FLCH, so the throttles had nothing to do. By the time speed became an issue, the pilot had already clicked off the auto pilot.

[Ram]

Hey, I know I'm just a stupid single seat guy and all, and I bet you could accuse me of doing that weird "hand flying" thing more than what's "normal" in a big airplane...

BUT

At what fucking point do you just tell the AP to fuck off and hand fly your airplane? I'm serious.

[hispeed7721]

They intended to use FLCH to descend on short final with a missed approach altitude set in the preselect window. Then they intentionally disengaged the automation because it didn't do what they wanted. I fail to understand how that's Boeing's fault.

Given that there is a warning in the manual about descending with FLCH mode, it's not Boeing's fault.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Prozac]

Point taken about hand flying skills being necessary. You're preaching to the choir here. However, the autothrottles and autopilot are two separate systems here. While the autopilot was clicked off, the autothrottles were left on with approach speed set in the window (Not a good practice IMO, but fairly common nonetheless). The intuitive assumption would be that the autothrottles would maintain the speed set in the window. That's what the manual would also lead you to believe. It was an eye opener to me at least when it was demonstrated in the sim that this is not the case.

Ram, to answer your question, it is a bit shocking how many people will let themselves get pulled in by the automation black hole. I'm talking senior captains here attempting to unfuck the autopilot on short final because that is what the last 30 years of training has emphasized. Clearly we have a problem with over-reliance on the automation, and it extends well beyond just the Asian carriers. The truth is that the automation has gotten so capable and complex that it brings it's own set of proficiency problems with it. I will admit it can be extremely difficult to maintain proficiency in both hand flying and working the automation--especially in an international widebody operation where you may only get a landing a month. You could make the argument that the hand flying thing trumps the automation, but the truth is there are situations that absolutely call for you to be good with the automation (can't hand fly a Cat III). This is why I'm extremely grateful to be able to beat up the pattern in my 60 year old, not-very-automated airplane at my reserve unit a couple times a month.

[DEVIL]

Hey, I know I'm just a stupid single seat guy and all, and I bet you could accuse me of doing that weird "hand flying" thing more than what's "normal" in a big airplane...

BUT

At what ######ing point do you just tell the AP to ###### off and hand fly your airplane? I'm serious.

People don't do that enough, it's disgusting. If someone lacks faith in their own hand flying skills to the point where they would trust the A/P more than themselves, they shouldn't be allowed to fly. Will it be as smooth? Probably not, but at least IMHO, I know I'm not going to screw it up.

[DC]

Not specific to the SFO 777…

I don’t think a lack of hand-flying skills is entirely the problem. Rather, it’s a lack of SA on where a pilot should be on the automation to hand-flying spectrum.

As a T-1 instructor, I was often the first IP to teach students how to use the autopilot system. At first, the system isn’t intuitive and almost without fail, they would end up fixating on getting the damn flight director to do what they wanted it to when hand-flying and looking outside would’ve been more appropriate. Later, when they could use it right, a simple misplaced button push or unexpected value spun in would again cause automation fixation. Often, they wouldn’t even realize they were so fixated. Hell, I can remember a few times I fixated on it in the C-17 and T-1. I doubt any pilot with an automation system has never unknowingly fixated on it.

Sometimes automation is appropriate, sometimes hand-flying is appropriate. Knowing how to use each is relatively simple to learn; it’s knowing WHEN to use each that’s the hard part.

That said, obviously a baseline knowledge of how to fly through the entire spectrum of automation/hand-flying is fundamental here, and sounds like it was a contributing factor to the specific 777 situation.

[Fuzz]

It also doesn't help that there is such an emphasis on using FD and automation. I've been scolded before for just clicking off the AP/AT and ignoring the FD when it did something wrong like turned the wrong way or the computer went out to lunch. I would put the jet where I wanted and then get everything synced up but I always heard "at least bug a heading and sync the flight director so you at least have something" or insert "at least do X". As if I am incapable of turning to a heading unless it is bugged. For note this is mainly from Sim instructors but I think for new guys this ingraines fixation on having to use the automation/FD.

[TreeA10]

Hey, I know I'm just a stupid single seat guy and all, and I bet you could accuse me of doing that weird "hand flying" thing more than what's "normal" in a big airplane...

BUT

At what fucking point do you just tell the AP to fuck off and hand fly your airplane? I'm serious.

Airbus is coming out with a change in their training program where you have to hand fly the jet. Who'd ah thunk it.

Even with that, I've seen guys go heads down inside of 10 miles in VFR clear and a million conditions to hand jam a landing runway change into the FMS and getting behind the jet in the process. Leaves me baffled and worried at the same time.

[Kuma]

The gotcha here is that YOU are the one that set the autopilot and computer. If you set it up wrong, then it will do whatever you set regardless of your intent. In this case, you must handfly the aircraft until you put it in the right spot. Let there be no doubt though, the FD does exactly what you told it to do and the computer does not go out to lunch. You simply programed it wrong.

Everytime the aircraft does something I don't expect, I retrace my steps from 30 sec to 5 hours ago and I always find what I did wrong in the first place.

So, in the end, autopilot or handfly, you are the boss. Make sure the jet does what you want it to do, and if it does not, correct it in a timely manner.