Fifty-six & Two Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 And where is this individual in your chain of command? Even better question: Where is this individual in the VSP process? I don't think the AMC/A3 has any say in waiving ADSCs since that is an A1 function. Correct me if I'm wrong.
chim richalds Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 I know it's a lot to ask out of an organization as poorly run as the air force, but can you please have this shit figured out before you open things up? I'm supposed to believe you can plan for wars of the future but you can't predict that a few unhappy pilots will want to leave your precious little dump? What a joke
pawnman Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 Our squadron commander told the VSP applicants in the squad today that the AMC A3 is not currently waiving UPT ADSCs, and expect to get our applications turned down once they get to AFPC. He added that it could change in the future, but as of right now we are going to be denied. Pretty sweet. Did anyone get similar words from their chain? So why to the matrices reflect such large overages for 11Ms in year groups that still have ADSCs? Or are we planning to go back on the idea that people eligible for the RIF are also eligible for VSP?
Chuck17 Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 Our squadron commander told the VSP applicants in the squad today that the AMC A3 is not currently waiving UPT ADSCs, and expect to get our applications turned down once they get to AFPC. He added that it could change in the future, but as of right now we are going to be denied. Pretty sweet. Did anyone get similar words from their chain? Given some of the other words I've heard from the A3 recently, this should surprise no one. Chuck
ViperMan Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 "made it clear that money, not ADSC commitments, would be the driving factor for how many folks would be let go voluntarily." To be fair, not waiving the service commitments that are payback for > $1M in training IS a budget/money decision... Replacing pilots takes a lot more time, $$$, and wear and tear on aging resources than it does to train most other (dare I say ALL) soldiers in the military.
Warrior Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 "made it clear that money, not ADSC commitments, would be the driving factor for how many folks would be let go voluntarily." To be fair, not waiving the service commitments that are payback for > $1M in training IS a budget/money decision... Replacing pilots takes a lot more time, $$$, and wear and tear on aging resources than it does to train most other (dare I say ALL) soldiers in the military. I thought the point of this is that they don't want to replace us-at least not at a one for one rate. And for this "return on investment"....as has been pointed out before, if I got to keep flying Id be much happier with staying in. I don't want to go to staff, I don't want to be an exec, I don't want to go to school. And I don't want to go on a 365. Now, before y'all think this is just a bunch of whining-I'm not saying I won't do whatever the AF tells me to, I'm just pointing out the idiocy of claiming "return on investment" when that means rated dudes get forced into non-flying assignments. 2
FBomb Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) "made it clear that money, not ADSC commitments, would be the driving factor for how many folks would be let go voluntarily." To be fair, not waiving the service commitments that are payback for > $1M in training IS a budget/money decision... Replacing pilots takes a lot more time, $$$, and wear and tear on aging resources than it does to train most other (dare I say ALL) soldiers in the military. Yes, ADSC's do in some way equate to dollars. However, there are many year groups where there is no way that any of the UPT ADSCs have been completed, and yet significant numbers of pilots have been ID'd for elimination. Why then are UPT ADSCs not being waived? Because Big Blue never intended to let people go voluntarily (i.e. see 2011 RIF), it was just empty words. Edited February 15, 2014 by FBomb
albertschu Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 Can someone help me out with "controlled tours"? I'm currently in the "fourth estate". One of my guys put in for voluntary separation (but not VSP, since his AFSC/year group isn't excess in the matix). Package came back to me saying I need to submit a "curtailment", because he is on a controlled tour. He would have separated prior to last PCS, but still had ADSC, so he accepted the PCS with the additional ADSC for PSC. Now his ADSC is up and they are telling us that he can't go because he is on a controlled tour. 1) I haven't read the fine print of the PDSM (I told him he should). Can he be applying for VSP? 2) What is the deal with controlled tours? He agreed to the ADSC but nothing else. I'm not sure how the government can legally force him to stay beyond what he agreed to. 3) Any other advice?
Bender Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 Can someone help me out with "controlled tours"? I'm currently in the "fourth estate". 3) Any other advice? No help from me on #1 or #2, but I'm always good for a #3. If anyone has "guys", perhaps it could be a good idea for you to read the "fine print". Maybe it's just me... Bendy
albertschu Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 No help from me on #1 or #2, but I'm always good for a #3. If anyone has "guys", perhaps it could be a good idea for you to read the "fine print". Maybe it's just me... Bendy Obviously important. But so far, my priority has been working RRFs for my guys that want to stay. 1 1
Mish_Hacker Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 I know I'm preaching to the choir on this (and this is just my opinion/perspective), but I still have a problem with the relationship between VSP and the Limited ADSC Waiver program. 13-65 indicates that you can separate using Limited ADSC as its own, stand-alone program (and it also talks about the Expanded Palace Chase Program as another stand-alone option). So if your ADSC is on the approved list, you could (theoretically) just apply for a standard separation and put "LImited ADSC Waiver Program" as your justification. No separation pay, just out and done... With that being said, the Limited ADSC Waiver program doesn't mention VSP at all. I can see the relationship between these two applying to those AFSC/year-group combinations that are "eligible" for voluntary programs on the matrix, but are not on the RIF matrix. For those eligible for RIF, and as it has been previously discussed in this thread, 13-130 should apply and it makes no reference to 13-65. As such, it should follow that those people who are eligible for the RIF (since they are identified as overages) should not need an ADSC Waiver to VSP. It's not like I get RIF'd and then AFPC turns around and says, "Good news, your RIF just got overturned because you still have ADSC".... This is how it makes sense to me, so I'm sure that it is the opposite of what AFPC will do....
matmacwc Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 I didn't think AFPC approved anything, they just recommend
Bender Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 . Obviously important. But so far, my priority has been working RRFs for my guys that want to stay. They certainly make it a challenge to take care of everybody. Perhaps there is an under-utilized LT running around somewhere (I've heard rumint of such creatures) that can read up on it for you...you could make him/her give you a briefing on the ins and outs in PowerPoint and everything! One less LT OPR bullet you'll have to write later (which could easily be made into a pretty decent one)...win win! Bendy
BamaC-21 Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 Can someone help me out with "controlled tours"? I'm currently in the "fourth estate". One of my guys put in for voluntary separation (but not VSP, since his AFSC/year group isn't excess in the matix). Package came back to me saying I need to submit a "curtailment", because he is on a controlled tour. He would have separated prior to last PCS, but still had ADSC, so he accepted the PCS with the additional ADSC for PSC. Now his ADSC is up and they are telling us that he can't go because he is on a controlled tour. 1) I haven't read the fine print of the PDSM (I told him he should). Can he be applying for VSP? 2) What is the deal with controlled tours? He agreed to the ADSC but nothing else. I'm not sure how the government can legally force him to stay beyond what he agreed to. 3) Any other advice? No help from me on #1 or #2, but I'm always good for a #3. If anyone has "guys", perhaps it could be a good idea for you to read the "fine print". Maybe it's just me... Bendy At least he's trying to get a solid answer from what is, unfortunately, probably the best place to find one. I don't know his situation but, I imagine "reading the fine print" gets more difficult when you've got a squadron full of E's & O's, with different jobs and different small print. 2
deskjockey Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 I'm currently in the "fourth estate". I'd love to help you…but, Rule #1 says never talk to the "fourth estate".
stract Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 (edited) if the question is about accomplishing a curtailment, I don't think those are that cosmic. It doesn't mean a position is being cut, it means someone is asking to be released from an assignment/location early. I've seen others do this from OCONUS locations. It's just a request to curtail the length of the current assignment. So in his case, since that ADSC exceeded his UPT ADSC, he needs to curtail to be released. ETA: the correct term in AFI 36-2110 is a "stabilized tour." Para 1.4 talks about waivers, suggest you start there. Edited February 16, 2014 by stract
PSYCH Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 I likely know the answer to this, but has anyone on the ineligible list made an attempt to VSP? Specifically, since all of the 11Fs are listed as red on the matrix it seems like that even submitting a package is a futile effort. I'm wondering if their are any brave souls that tried to push to test.
Fozzy Bear Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 Well, the vast majority of sober people would consider me ineligible, but yeah, I applied. The system took it. I wasn't sure I had even applied for VSP - it's not intuitive, but then my commander told me he was going to recommend against for manning, so at least I did it right. I think. The point is, the system will take the application and in a few months, you'll be told you were denied for VSP because you were ineligible in the first place. This, according to AFPC as of Thursday. I applied because I don't trust what anyone is saying and am hoping to slip through the cracks. 11S, 2004 year group.
nsplayr Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 Fozzy, are you ineligible because you have a DOS perhaps? Interesting that the system let you try...I couldn't get it to work from home but will be attempting at work on Tuesday. Good luck to you good sir!
Warrior Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Anyone know offhand if the senior rater is technically required to write the rrf? As in, I'm trying to vsp; I know damn good and well it won't get approved, so then I want to get RIFd. In such a scenario, I have zero incentive/motivation to write my own rrf. Any tips on what/how to write it - the only caveat being that I need to get it through the Sq/Gp and Wg without having it sent back so I can do it again. Already been told "Please consider this a resubmission of my vsp application" is a nonstarter. 1
FBomb Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Anyone know offhand if the senior rater is technically required to write the rrf? As in, I'm trying to vsp; I know damn good and well it won't get approved, so then I want to get RIFd. In such a scenario, I have zero incentive/motivation to write my own rrf. Any tips on what/how to write it - the only caveat being that I need to get it through the Sq/Gp and Wg without having it sent back so I can do it again. Already been told "Please consider this a resubmission of my vsp application" is a nonstarter. You can actually write a letter to the board asking to not be retained. Somewhere earlier in this topic is a link to the AFPCI that covers RIFs, and it specifically allows the RIF board members to consider a "do not retain me" letter if you are that determined.
MSCguy Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 The senior rater has to strat all the way down on the RRFs per the RIF PSDM. Give yourself that 200/200 strat on your draft RRF-he'll probably get the message. 1
sky_king Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Schedule a PT test on Tuesday morning and fail it miserably. 3
audioflyer Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 I'm sure we're all having to write our own RRFs, but just so you know, the reg governing RRFs specifically says we are not supposed to write our own. PM me if you want me to find it for you, I can look it up on Tuesday.
Learjetter Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 For my guys' RRFs, I've asked them to submit inputs...I expect most (all) to submit said inputs, as no RIF-eligibles here seem interested in VSP. If they don't, I'll write the PRF for the senior rater's endorsement. In short, we're doing RRFs exactly like we do PRFs.
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