Catbox Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Oh, and that's not ignorance. That's the result of me not communicating clearly. Nah...all my brain can is think "click mypers...click baseops...lie on an EPR...repeat" 2
Mountain Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Nah...all my brain can is think "click mypers...click baseops...lie on an EPR...repeat" Well, now you have a NEW page to check every 6-9 min.
FLY6584 Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) I just sat through the biggest clown show I have yet to see in the Air Force. The SECAF just visited our deployed location today to speak with us and answer questions that were on the minds of our Airmen. Just prior to the speech the senior leaders said they had 10 individuals in the crowd with pre-planned questions to insure there wouldn't be any "silence" when asked for volunteers, but that we were all encouraged to ask anything we wanted. I had come to the speech with a question prepared that explained that according to AFPC, 2563 pilots from the 2005-2008 year groups were eligible for the RIF/VSP with a reported overage of 415 pilots, but that many of us had applied and had been denied due to our ADSC's and that they were currently seeking SECAF approval to waive those ADSC's. I just wanted to ask if she planned on waiving those ADSC's and if those of us that have been denied should reapply as the 1 May deadline is fast approaching. Quite possibly the most appropriate question for the SECAF who just got done speaking about force shaping, current overages, and people being her number one priority in her speech. Well the people with the microphones only called on 4 people that had pre-planned questions and then we were told there was not enough time for anymore questions. I had raised my hand every single time as high as I possibly could and made direct eye contact with the people with microphones, but was ignored every single time. They asked questions about sexual assault, the future of our deployed location, and a couple other things that absolutely no one in the room cared about. I have never been more disappointed with this organization. If I could resign my commission and turn my wings in today I would. Edited March 18, 2014 by FLY6584
Mountain Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) I tried to log on and vMPF was not workingShit! They're onto us... Edited March 18, 2014 by Mountain
tunes Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 I just sat through the biggest clown show I have yet to see in the Air Force. The SECAF just visited our deployed location today to speak with us and answer questions that were on the minds of our Airmen. Just prior to the speech the senior leaders said they had 10 individuals in the crowd with pre-planned questions to insure there wouldn't be any "silence" when asked for volunteers, but that we were all encouraged to ask anything we wanted. I had come to the speech with a question prepared that explained that according to AFPC, 2563 pilots from the 2005-2008 year groups were eligible for the RIF/VSP with a reported overage of 415 pilots, but that many of us had applied and had been denied due to our ADSC's and that they were currently seeking SECAF approval to waive those ADSC's. I just wanted to ask if she planned on waiving those ADSC's and if those of us that have been denied should reapply as the 1 May deadline is fast approaching. Quite possibly the most appropriate question for the SECAF who just got done speaking about force shaping, current overages, and people being her number one priority in her speech. Well the people with the microphones only called on 4 people that had pre-planned questions and then we were told there was not enough time for anymore questions. I had raised my hand every single time as high as I possibly could and made direct eye contact with the people with microphones, but was ignored every single time. They asked questions about sexual assault, the future of our deployed location, and a couple other things that absolutely no one in the room cared about. I have never been more disappointed with this organization. If I could resign my commission and turn my wings in today I would. sorry man, shitty...but to be expected unfortunately.
ExBoneOSO Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 How much do you want to bet that when the AF Times article comes out, it'll say how great the visit was... I just sat through the biggest clown show I have yet to see in the Air Force. ......
FLY6584 Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 How much do you want to bet that when the AF Times article comes out, it'll say how great the visit was... The sad part is I don't even think it was the SECAF's doing. I feel it's the mid-level managers that want to do nothing, but tell the high-ups what they THINK they want to hear. They want to squash anything that is controversial and put up smoke and mirrors to make people like the SECAF feel like everything is great at the bottom level. I thought the point of a "Town Hall" meeting was to answer those real questions and gauge the climate and feelings of the people they say they care so much about? Furthermore there is a luncheon tomorrow with the SECAF for a select few individuals from Airman to Captains to LtCol's. I just so happen to know a pilot attending the luncheon and asked if he could ask a question that I tried to ask in the "Town Hall" and he said that he could not because all questions had to be approved a week ago by leadership. Are you f'ing kidding me?! I would find it shocking if the SECAF actually knew this was going on and was ok with it. She seemed like a very down to earth and well educated lady that could do a lot of great things for our Air Force, but we are going to hide the true problems from her?!
ThreeHoler Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Reminds me of a briefing several years ago by some 2-star at AMC: he asked for questions and after some silence, a flight engineer stood up and asked "Sir, why do we fly around empty (or with only a few pallets) on so many cargo missions?" The answer: "We don't." The engineer then said, "Sir, I have all my paperwork for the last year of missions and I'd be happy to show you all the missions where we had active legs without cargo." "Next question, please." I think that was the same briefing as the infamous "those of us on O&M don't have the money to buy TP to wipe our own asses but the TWCF squadrons have new computers, uniforms, boots, etc." I don't think I ever applauded a question that hard before or after. 2
panchbarnes Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) That's pure BS. These managerial clowns just don't get it. Go to Gen Welsh's facebook page and ask him directly and let him know what happened at the town hall. Others have already been speaking up on his facebook page. And if you don't want your name out there, just create a separate account. Edited March 18, 2014 by PanchBarnes 1
aston.martin Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 I just sat through the biggest clown show I have yet to see in the Air Force. The SECAF just visited our deployed location today to speak with us and answer questions that were on the minds of our Airmen. Just prior to the speech the senior leaders said they had 10 individuals in the crowd with pre-planned questions to insure there wouldn't be any "silence" when asked for volunteers, but that we were all encouraged to ask anything we wanted. I had come to the speech with a question prepared that explained that according to AFPC, 2563 pilots from the 2005-2008 year groups were eligible for the RIF/VSP with a reported overage of 415 pilots, but that many of us had applied and had been denied due to our ADSC's and that they were currently seeking SECAF approval to waive those ADSC's. I just wanted to ask if she planned on waiving those ADSC's and if those of us that have been denied should reapply as the 1 May deadline is fast approaching. Quite possibly the most appropriate question for the SECAF who just got done speaking about force shaping, current overages, and people being her number one priority in her speech. Well the people with the microphones only called on 4 people that had pre-planned questions and then we were told there was not enough time for anymore questions. I had raised my hand every single time as high as I possibly could and made direct eye contact with the people with microphones, but was ignored every single time. They asked questions about sexual assault, the future of our deployed location, and a couple other things that absolutely no one in the room cared about. I have never been more disappointed with this organization. If I could resign my commission and turn my wings in today I would. Very disappointing indeed. I just sat through the same speech. Sadly, it doesn't surprise me that the senior leaders screened/censored the questions. It definitely wasn't a "Town Hall" meeting. What a broken organization...reminds me of case studies I've read on Enron where employees were intimidated and never allowed to speak up. Sorry dude, I wish they would have let you ask your question.
Liquid Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 I just sat through the biggest clown show I have yet to see in the Air Force. The SECAF just visited our deployed location today to speak with us and answer questions that were on the minds of our Airmen. Just prior to the speech the senior leaders said they had 10 individuals in the crowd with pre-planned questions to insure there wouldn't be any "silence" when asked for volunteers, but that we were all encouraged to ask anything we wanted. I had come to the speech with a question prepared that explained that according to AFPC, 2563 pilots from the 2005-2008 year groups were eligible for the RIF/VSP with a reported overage of 415 pilots, but that many of us had applied and had been denied due to our ADSC's and that they were currently seeking SECAF approval to waive those ADSC's. I just wanted to ask if she planned on waiving those ADSC's and if those of us that have been denied should reapply as the 1 May deadline is fast approaching. Quite possibly the most appropriate question for the SECAF who just got done speaking about force shaping, current overages, and people being her number one priority in her speech. Well the people with the microphones only called on 4 people that had pre-planned questions and then we were told there was not enough time for anymore questions. I had raised my hand every single time as high as I possibly could and made direct eye contact with the people with microphones, but was ignored every single time. They asked questions about sexual assault, the future of our deployed location, and a couple other things that absolutely no one in the room cared about. I have never been more disappointed with this organization. If I could resign my commission and turn my wings in today I would. You would resign your commission because you weren't called on to ask a question? Holy shit. You must lose your mind when they are out of mint chocolate chip at the DFAC. Here is the answer she would have probably given you if you hadn't been so disrespected, dishonored, abused and embarrassed that your hand was raised so high but you weren't picked: We have not approved ADSC waivers yet because we want to be good stewards of taxpayer dollars and protect the investment we have made into training and readiness. We did not want to specifically exclude VSP options for those with ADSCs because we may have the opportunity to match the needs of the Air Force (reducing pilots in certain aircraft in certain year groups to meet budget targets) with an individual's desire to separate prior to finishing the terms of the ADSC they agreed to. We were surprised by the feedback from commanders that described the high cost to readiness and training that releasing 415 to 2563 pilots early would have. We probably should have asked the commanders before releasing the eligibility matrix but we wanted to make as many people as possible aware that we were planning on cutting up to 25,000 people in FY14. We are conducting the analysis now to determine how to best balance our fiscal challenges, maintain readiness, and give people enough time to plan for an earlier than expected transition from active duty. We have struggled with this due to NDAA language, congressional inquiries, a larger than expected AF top line in the president's budget and bad weather in the DC area. I recommend you reapply for TSP and be patient with us as we get through these challenging times. Thank you for serving your nation in the world's greatest Air Force. Next question. 1
FLY6584 Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) You would resign your commission because you weren't called on to ask a question? Holy shit. You must lose your mind when they are out of mint chocolate chip at the DFAC. Here is the answer she would have probably given you if you hadn't been so disrespected, dishonored, abused and embarrassed that your hand was raised so high but you weren't picked: We have not approved ADSC waivers yet because we want to be good stewards of taxpayer dollars and protect the investment we have made into training and readiness. We did not want to specifically exclude VSP options for those with ADSCs because we may have the opportunity to match the needs of the Air Force (reducing pilots in certain aircraft in certain year groups to meet budget targets) with an individual's desire to separate prior to finishing the terms of the ADSC they agreed to. We were surprised by the feedback from commanders that described the high cost to readiness and training that releasing 415 to 2563 pilots early would have. We probably should have asked the commanders before releasing the eligibility matrix but we wanted to make as many people as possible aware that we were planning on cutting up to 25,000 people in FY14. We are conducting the analysis now to determine how to best balance our fiscal challenges, maintain readiness, and give people enough time to plan for an earlier than expected transition from active duty. We have struggled with this due to NDAA language, congressional inquiries, a larger than expected AF top line in the president's budget and bad weather in the DC area. I recommend you reapply for TSP and be patient with us as we get through these challenging times. Thank you for serving your nation in the world's greatest Air Force. Next question. Thank you for the explanation. That was probably the best, most honest, no bull shit answer we have received to date and I appreciate that. Why is it so hard to get that from AFPC or senior leaders? Sure my emotions probably got the best of me and resigning a commission and turning in wings that I have poured countless amounts of blood, sweat, and tears into seems a bit extreme, but I can assure it's not just because I was not "called on for a question". It's just another thing on a long list of things that I never imagined would happen that day I took my oath of office. Edited March 18, 2014 by FLY6584
Liquid Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Thank you for the explanation. That was probably the best, most honest, no bull shit answer we have received to date and I appreciate that. Why is it so hard to get that from AFPC or senior leaders? Sure my emotions probably got the best of me and resigning a commission and turning in wings that I have poured countless amounts of blood, sweat, and tears into seems a bit extreme, but I can assure it's not just because I was not "called on for a question". It's just another thing on a long list of things that I never imagined would happen that day I took my oath of office. I hear you. Cutting Ripits is on my long list. Hang in there. 2
Tnkr Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) You would resign your commission because you weren't called on to ask a question? Holy shit. You must lose your mind when they are out of mint chocolate chip at the DFAC. Here is the answer she would have probably given you if you hadn't been so disrespected, dishonored, abused and embarrassed that your hand was raised so high but you weren't picked: Holy condescending, batman! I think you missed the point of his comment. Or maybe you didn't but just want to pretend you did. I think that's in the AFI on AF leadership. His point was not that he was personally offended that HIS question wasn't taken. Rather, it's that our fearless managers don't have the stones to allow their people to ask honest questions that a significant percentage of us are trying to get answers for. The ideas of integrity, excellence, and service (service runs in both directions, not just up the chain) once again stops at the O-4/E-6 level. I apologize in advance for what seems like a vitriol-laden response. I can't stand intellectual dishonesty. Liquid, if you honestly believed that his point was that he was sad for not getting called on, then I retract my statements at you but defend my overall point. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Edit to beat the grammar nazis. Edited March 18, 2014 by Tnkr
Altus Barbarosa Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Sure my emotions probably got the best of me and resigning a commission and turning in wings that I have poured countless amounts of blood, sweat, and tears into seems a bit extreme, but I can assure it's not just because I was not "called on for a question". It's just another thing on a long list of things that I never imagined would happen that day I took my oath of office. Countless amounts of blood? Really? 1
Rusty Pipes Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 You would resign your commission because you weren't called on to ask a question? Holy shit. You must lose your mind when they are out of mint chocolate chip at the DFAC. Here is the answer she would have probably given you if you hadn't been so disrespected, dishonored, abused and embarrassed that your hand was raised so high but you weren't picked: I think that is a little harsh, Liquid. I'm quite sure FLY was venting about resigning his commission, but you are completely glossing over or missing the fact that what happened to him is pretty much the standard. The CSAF was supposed to come visit our Agency in the past year (he had to canx a week prior though) and the senior Air Force O-6 here sent out an e-mail to all AF members in the Agency mandating each of us submit one question to him to be asked to the Boss for him to review. He was then going to select the questions to be asked and by whom... this too was supposed to be a Town Hall type forum at the request of Gen Welsh. I would be willing to bet my entire career's pay that this was not the intent of the Boss. You agreed to my post above that managers need to be replaced with Leaders and this may have to be the result of the Boss handing out a few pink slips... this guy (and others like him) are EXACTLY what I am talking about. If I were CSAF or SECAF I would be furious if I knew my Town Hall open Q & A forums were being undermined by these middle managers. You have done a good job on here explaining the intent of the Boss and trying to pass on his message... you have also suggested or alluded to the fact that you have some access to him and are passing on some of the constructive messages from this forum. Please pass on to him that this exact thing is happening to him and his boss... I certainly won't speak for anyone else, but I'm sure plenty of folks on here could chime in with almost identical stories.
FLY6584 Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) Countless amounts of blood? Really? Yeah.... someone in my office kept leaving the paper cutter open and I kept tripping and cutting myself on it. Edited March 18, 2014 by FLY6584 1
panchbarnes Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) Liquid, A lot of us just want honesty from Sr leaders. Airmen's careers have been in limbo and life/family plans put on hold since December. This may not bother you but it affects many of us. When leaders put on a town hall meeting with the SECAF, you would expect an open forum to address concerns and not another dog and pony show with hand picked questioners. I am sorry if this doesn't bother you. But this is a part of the reason why many of the CGOs are so jaded and are looking to bail. Your response to the FMP is great. if it's legit, why is it only available to certain individuals? Edited March 18, 2014 by PanchBarnes
chim richalds Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 You say "protect taxpayers investment," but what about the gains the govt gets by getting me off their payroll for good, never having to pay to pcs me again, and getting my family off tricare? It's cheaper for the govt to get me out early, hence why they (supposedly) will pay you to get out.
Tnkr Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 I think that is a little harsh, Liquid. I'm quite sure FLY was venting about resigning his commission, but you are completely glossing over or missing the fact that what happened to him is pretty much the standard. The CSAF was supposed to come visit our Agency in the past year (he had to canx a week prior though) and the senior Air Force O-6 here sent out an e-mail to all AF members in the Agency mandating each of us submit one question to him to be asked to the Boss for him to review. He was then going to select the questions to be asked and by whom... this too was supposed to be a Town Hall type forum at the request of Gen Welsh. I would be willing to bet my entire career's pay that this was not the intent of the Boss. You agreed to my post above that managers need to be replaced with Leaders and this may have to be the result of the Boss handing out a few pink slips... this guy (and others like him) are EXACTLY what I am talking about. If I were CSAF or SECAF I would be furious if I knew my Town Hall open Q & A forums were being undermined by these middle managers. You have done a good job on here explaining the intent of the Boss and trying to pass on his message... you have also suggested or alluded to the fact that you have some access to him and are passing on some of the constructive messages from this forum. Please pass on to him that this exact thing is happening to him and his boss... I certainly won't speak for anyone else, but I'm sure plenty of folks on here could chime in with almost identical stories. Shack. If I were CSAF or SECAF and I found out about this I would think that the commander responsible was trying to 'protect' me from tough questions. We're talking about leaders that have to stand before congress and answer the really tough questions. It seems a bit paternalistic to shield these people from Airmens' questions. If they can't speak to crowds and have the answers on hand then they do what Gen Welsh learned in WIC: I do not know but I can get that answer for you. I'll ask the A1 why this happened and I'll post the answer to my Facebook page by the COB tomorrow. And then make sure it happens. That's how leaders earn and maintain credibility. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Rusty Pipes Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Great conversation here that I don't want to derail, but just wanted to throw this info out there just as an FYI... I know several folks who were waiting on notification for Summer cycle PCSs that got their AMS Robot assignment notifications today. I know many were speculating that these may be held back and that it possibly had to do with this whole Force Shaping mess, but I know at least some are being notified and it is right on schedule with the AFPC timeline.
Liquid Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Holy condescending, batman! I think you missed the point of his comment. Or maybe you didn't but just want to pretend you did. I think that's in the AFI on AF leadership. His point was not that he was personally offended that HIS question wants taken. Rather, it's that our fearless managers don't have the stones to allow their people to ask honest questions that a significant percentage of us are trying to get answers for. The ideas of integrity, excellence, and service (service runs in both directions, not just up the chain) once again stops at the O-4/E-6 level. I apologize in advance for what seems like a vitriol-laden response. I can't stand intellectual dishonesty. Liquid, if you honestly believed that his point was that he was sad for not getting called on, then I retract my statements at you but defend my overall point. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Lighten up Francis. For every example of spineless managers "controlling the questions" so they don't look bad or embarrass the DV, there are equal examples of unfiltered access. Sometimes it is actually the DV that determines the types of questions and the forum, particularly the political appointees. This batch of current leaders, from CSAF to USecAF to SecAF to MAJCOM CCs and CCCs are very open to honest feedback and frank questions in open forums. My smart ass response was appropriate due to the absurdity of threatening resigning commissions and slapping down wings. I spent much more time answering his actual question than arguing about dishonest leaders filtering messages.
FLY6584 Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 I hear you. Cutting Ripits is on my long list. Hang in there. Come on... cut me some slack. For the record when I joined I never planned on wanting to get out early. I totally 100% bought into the blue. I'm not sure I'd call myself a kool-aid drinker, but I was damn near close to it. Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine I'd want out of the organization I fought so hard to get into and admired for so many years. For me, the biggest disappointment.... is this organization not being what I thought it was when I joined. In the end we'll all be fine and most of us will go on to have successful careers in civilian aviation, but that's not what I grew up dreaming about. I never wanted to tell my grandson about my third leg into LAX flying my Delta jet... I always wanted to tell him about this awesome organization I got the chance to serve and help make this world a better place. I have had the chance to do some really great things over the past 7 years and wouldn't trade them for the world, but unfortunately for me the bad FAR outweighs the good. 3
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now