FY 14 Force Management Program (RIF, VSP, TERA)

[stract]

I'm glad I was able to achieve escape velocity now more than ever.

[Vprdrvr69]

https://www.jqpublic-blog.com/force-mismanagement-afpc-botches-retirements-airmen-caught-crossfire/

Nailed it once again. Worth reading.

[Jaded]

I wonder if there might not be real legal repercussions to "taking back" retirement? At what point is that just involuntarily activating someone? The day you outprocess your final base?

[panchbarnes]

The term "FIIGMO" no longer applies in today's AF...

[chizz]

The new term is F!....IGMO

Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!

[17D_guy]

Seems like that sternly worded email I said Gen Cox was going to send got routed to the poor souls who were "approved in error". I was removed from eligibility in the latest update, and wasn't applying anyway. But like you guys say, I'm using their actions as a gage for what we're going to face ahead.

My Lt's and Amn/NCOs are coming to me with questions about staying in and the future and when this shit happens I can't think of even a positive way to spin it. This won't even make a good story years from now. I've given out LoR's for much less than what's going on at AFPC. My guys see nothing but screwup after screwup with no repercussions for the people managing our lives. Guess I should track if I have more attention to detail problems soon.

The despair that hit me when I saw that "Haha, just kidding" email was pretty tough. I couldn't imagine actually getting the rug pulled that hard.

I hope this great leader shows up shortly.

[HeloDude]

No matter how many times they throw the force under the bus, there will always be guys around willing to accept it. It's called moral hazard.

You have a few decent thoughts, but here's where I see the biggest 'potential' flaw with Big Blue: Convincing the young guys for the future.

Back when I was competing for a UPT slot in ROTC (to include the entire time in the program), there was very little negative talk about joining the AF, willing to accept the new 10-yr ADSC, all the BS that active duty would entail, etc. Is it the same way at the Academy/ROTC Dets today? My ROTC time was before Sept 11th, so we weren't hearing all the crazy stories about all the deployments (though we knew the fighter guys were doing ONW and SW, and that the heavy guys were always doing their standard trips, but it didn't sound too bad). Also, the only brief Internet chat about AD seemed to be on studentpilot.net (if I got that correctly) and guys like Hacker and Toro telling us how AD flying was the best thing since sex (I don't blame them...times were much better then).

Flash Forward to today: I'm assuming there are quite a bit of young guys at the Acedemy and in ROTC that constantly lurk on here and I'm sure they tell their friends the good/bad/ugly stories we discuss...have these stories influenced the young 20-year olds to not pursue taking on the longer ADSC? As naive/immature (and motivated, of course) that the pre-commisionees are, hearing all the crap we put out, not to mention the open-source info about RIFs, constant focus on SAPR stuff, you name it...this stuff eventually has to influence the younger guys. Flying is great, but anything great has a price, and if it gets too high people will eventually say it's not worth it. Or will there always be enough halfway decent young guys wanting to fly so badly that they don't care about the horror stories? Either way, you're right--it won't change much in the short term I'm sure.

Maybe the AF will soon need to resort to recruiting videos like this:

https://vimeo.com/7015914

[Mish_Hacker]

Maybe the AF will soon need to resort to recruiting videos like this:

New Air Force Motto: Aim High...Fly, Fight, Win*

* Terms and conditions apply.

[Magellan]

Flash Forward to today: I'm assuming there are quite a bit of young guys at the Acedemy and in ROTC that constantly lurk on here and I'm sure they tell their friends the good/bad/ugly stories we discuss...have these stories influenced the young 20-year olds to not pursue taking on the longer ADSC? As naive/immature (and motivated, of course) that the pre-commisionees are, hearing all the crap we put out, not to mention the open-source info about RIFs, constant focus on SAPR stuff, you name it...this stuff eventually has to influence the younger guys. Flying is great, but anything great has a price, and if it gets too high people will eventually say it's not worth it. Or will there always be enough halfway decent young guys wanting to fly so badly that they don't care about the horror stories? Either way, you're right--it won't change much in the short term I'm sure.

Their deals have gotten progressively shittier, but the AF still keeps getting enough officers from these sources. So much so that OTS is barely producing any officers. So as long as the Air Force is getting enough meat for the grinder I don't think the AFPC folks will ever really give a shit, because they operate under the illusion of, "Hey we have enough bodies. So what if we piss a few people off...we need to get rid of some anyway."

Getting back to the shitty deals...one example is the rated slot application process. Back in the day (early 2000's and before) you could apply for just one rated career field Pilot, Nav, or ABM. Then they changed it for ROTC cadets that if you apply for one you apply for all of them with RPA operator thrown into the mix as well now, and the Air Force is supposedly rolling this out at the Academy as well. So until high school kids get wise to the AF shenanigans and stop applying for the academy and ROTC scholarships the AF will always have enough bodies on the officer side so they will continue to treat us like crap and mismanage the force. The reason being simply because the Air Force is naturally more inclined to replace people than to retain them.

That said the Academy is in a downward spiral according to my friend that is an instructor there that just got approved for VSP. Apparently AETC thought it would be a great idea to shit can the program that gets almost all the military instructors there the degrees required to go teach in their respective departments. Not to mention they are all but shutting down the channels for the top instructors to go on to get their doctorates so they can come back and be department heads...in short in a few years the only people that will be qualified to teach at the USAFA will be civilians.

[10percenttruth]

New Air Force Motto: Aim High...Fly, Fight, Win*

* Terms and conditions apply.

More like: "Aim High, Hit Wherever"

"Integrity Third, Strats before Service, Mediocrity in All We Do"

[Azimuth]

I thought USAFA was a DRU and not aligned (minus the flight training) under AETC?

[10percenttruth]

I thought USAFA was a DRU and not aligned (minus the flight training) under AETC?

True, but IIRC, all degree programs are governed by AFIT or AU (as appropriate)

[Mustache Sally]

And don't forget all of the hilarious (and truthful) Xtra Normal vids on the Youtubes that simultaneously mock and tell the real story about life in the AF...kids, start taking notes if you haven't already!! Your recruiter will never ever give you our side of the story...

[MooseAg03]

I guess AFPC took this weekend off, it sure has been quiet.

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[shweaty]

Were all the TERA take backs from enlisted? From the Air Force times article it sounds like the numbers revision allowed them to keep 8K+ enlisted jobs. It was written in the AF times.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20140403/CAREERS02/304030053/Thousands-airmen-spared

[MSCguy]

Ahh, the AF Times-charging airmen to read what you can find for free elsewhere. I'm curious about that RIF-did enough Os ask for VSP that AFPC said F it, we don't need a RIF? That looks like what happened on the E side-many career fields had so many takers for the early outs that the retention boards got canx.

[shweaty]

Also for VSP I don't think they have a solid date to start notifying people like they did for TERA. Or is it April 30th?

[guineapigfury]

Flash Forward to today: I'm assuming there are quite a bit of young guys at the Acedemy and in ROTC that constantly lurk on here and I'm sure they tell their friends the good/bad/ugly stories we discuss...have these stories influenced the young 20-year olds to not pursue taking on the longer ADSC? As naive/immature (and motivated, of course) that the pre-commisionees are, hearing all the crap we put out, not to mention the open-source info about RIFs, constant focus on SAPR stuff, you name it...this stuff eventually has to influence the younger guys.

This is already happening. I've met more than a handful of guys in RPA's who opted for this route to take advantage of the shorter ADSC (6 years vs 10). Still time to upgrade to instructor, get a couple thousand hours and be in a good position to take advantage of free agency if RPA opportunities are available on the outside. Or they can separate and use the GI Bill to get a real Master's Degree before they're 30 years old. Well planned FENCE Out, I think.

[jstarsshag]

Who is John Galt?

[chizz]

I'm going to be a little devil's advocate here for a bit, if you dont like it, dont read it.

Did you work over the weekend? I am sure 90% of you didnt so I dont understand everyone's complaint about them taking the weekend off, there is ALWAYS going to be work to do, I always tell the execs that, OPRs will be there tomorrow, as well as 8,000 FM applications. Coming in over the weekend isnt going to make the dent, AFPC coming up with solidified guidance on how to implement them is

----

Just because you didnt do your research or werent able to predict the future is no reason to jump on the AF hating bandwagon. Thats what got us into this personnel issue in the first place. I had a student who dropped RPAs at UPT and stormed out of the room throwing his beer and sat in the parking lot crying about it and I am sure there were more stories like that. Where does it say that if you get a pilot slot the AF is required to give you a cockpit? If you want guaranteed stick time go get hired by a guard unit that will have a non-RPA mission for the next 5 yrs (hint, its not going to be in a fighter). I wasnt smart enough to do that and am kicking myself in the ass when I feel I cant drink the cool aid anymore, but its not the AFs fault, I made that (uninformed) decision.

You don't think a free college education and pilot training in the world's greatest AF is worth working for big blue for 10 yrs? Do you know how long pilots at regional airlines sit in the right seat and put the gear up and down, and get paid less than your boom operator that makes you coffee and brings you your box lunch if you are nice enough to them? With AF wings and enough time you can walk right out of the Sq the day you separate and into an airline (granted they have to be hiring) making decent coin.

I am tired of everyone saying I cant take it anymore, I want out, its not what I thought it was going to be, they lied to me, its not fair. GROW UP. Was the first day of summer camp what you thought it was going to be when you were crying for your mommy? Was college what you thought it was going to be when you failed you first test? Was ROTC/UPT/SOS/your next Sq Commander what you thought it was going to be? NO!!!!!! When you signed that ADSC you knew what the ramifications were, and if you didnt then I am sorry that you are stuck in a job you hate that hasnt let you travel to at least some other part of the country or world and given you skills that you can't pay to be taught to you.

Edited April 7, 2014 by chizz

[17D_guy]

Just because you didnt do your research...

Wut

I am tired of everyone saying I cant take it anymore, I want out, its not what I thought it was going to be, they lied to me, its not fair. GROW UP. Was the first day of summer camp what you thought it was going to be when you were crying for your mommy? Was college what you thought it was going to be when you failed you first test? Was ROTC/UPT/SOS/your next Sq Commander what you thought it was going to be? NO!!!!!! When you signed that ADSC you knew what the ramifications were, and if you didnt then I am sorry that you are stuck in a job you hate that hasnt let you travel to at least some other part of the country or world and given you skills that you can't pay to be taught to you.

Conversely I'm tired of the AF saying they can't take it anymore and want people out, then.. you know.. not doing their research and keeping people's lives in a constant state of chaos. I suggest you check that Group CC's thread Liquid posted about creating a "safe" environment from which to lead.

As far as ADSC commitment, the AF's willing to wave the MAJORITY of that now. If they don't think it's worthwhile why should flyers?

People have signed up for the military and wanted out immediately forever. Some get out, some don't, some die. You don't want to read about people bitching about being in, volunteering to get out using the AF's own processes and getting screwed? I suggest you "don't read" this thread.

Edited April 7, 2014 by 17D_guy

[Altus Barbarosa]

I'm going to be a little devil's advocate here for a bit, if you dont like it, dont read it.

Did you work over the weekend? I am sure 90% of you didnt so I dont understand everyone's complaint about them taking the weekend off, there is ALWAYS going to be work to do, I always tell the execs that, OPRs will be there tomorrow, as well as 8,000 FM applications. Coming in over the weekend isnt going to make the dent, AFPC coming up with solidified guidance on how to implement them is

Wow.

That you would advocate treating people's livelihood like any other piece of paperwork is nauseating.

Guess what chump. You bet your ass I'd be working every night and weekend I needed to if people's livelihood hung in the balance. Just like I work nights and weekends when the mission requires it in my day to day job. AFPC is a cush job most years but this year they are fuxking up and need to put in long hours to recover from this disaster. I have no sympathy for the troops who have to cancel plans or miss their kids soccer games this weekend as long as they execute their mission which is to take care of USAF personnel. Too bad so sad welcome to the military.

[chizz]

like I said, them coming in on the weekend is pointless when all they are going to do is chase everyones tail in the office. They first need to really figure out what the end state is and operate under solid guidance. Seems like they are just shotgunning it so why have someone pissed off having to come in on the weekend to send out the cancellation of retirement orders? So please tell me how them coming in on the weekend is going to make this nightmare go away? the scars are too deep. And yes, I agree altus (I am horrible at analogies) I do not think this situation is anywhere near working an OPR or dec, was just trying to say staff work in general is constant with no end in sight which kind of feels like this process is.

17D, I didnt say AFPC did their research, thats why I stated this is where we are right now. Its like the FAIP class that got screwed out of a bunch of fighters because the functional forgot to give bombers to the class prior, so his F-up screwed the next class.

I am more fed up of people operating on WOM rather than looking stuff up themselves and educating themselves. It's a shame we have to operate on WOM for the FM programs because thats all thats out there. ADSCs are AFPCs to waive, not ours. Just because they are waiving them to meet their end strength goals doesnt diminish the importance of the 10 yr someone signed up for. So if they waive a commitment of 10 down to 6, is it ok for a guy entering UPT to barter his ADSC down to a 6? I would say no.

[Mish_Hacker]

Chizz, I agree with you on most of the coming in on weekends stuff for the still pending FM applications. As much as it strains my patience, there's only so much they can do at a time, and throwing in weekend days doesn't really make a huge dent in the already drawn out FM program. They haven't met a deadline yet anyways....

I disagree though on the AFPC weekend work with regards to the "take back" retirement stuff. The approval retraction is much more than an OPR meeting some (essentially) arbitrary deadline. Someone who has served honorably for 15+ years certainly deserves much better than to have to wait until Monday for someone to give them an explanation (vs a robot email) and (hopefully) a solution...

[MooseAg03]

I guess I'll stop working weekends, because what is an extra day or two going to do to the war effort? The bad guys will be there Monday morning.

Could you imagine aircrew telling TACC, 'We're gonna go ahead and crew rest over the weekend. The cargo will all be there Monday, we wouldn't even be able to make a dent these next two days so we're gonna sit back and chill.'

The bottom line is, their own guidance said TERA guys would be notified BY 1 Apr and they failed, VSP apps would be processed in batches every month... So if aircrew failed to safely complete the mission every day would they keep their jobs? No, we go to an FEB where they fight to take our wings away. Huge double standard.

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