FY 14 Force Management Program (RIF, VSP, TERA)

[Mountain]

So my TERA app status went to "Validation Complete" on 12 Mar. Since then, no DoS in vMPF, but it was updated 13 Mar, then again today. Anyone else seeing similar stuff?

[Rusty Pipes]

This FMP has been an absolute fiasco and people should be fired. They won't be fired because we are too nice to each. We tolerate incompetence and mission failure. We only fire people if they embarrass us, which is wrong. I would love to know how many people A1 and AFPC have ever been relieved of their duties. Not many I guess. You are not asking too much. Our senior leadership has let down many people and this loss of trust will be difficult to regain. Keep nailing the PI and TOT and try to not get too frustrated by the uncertainty.

I agree that people definitely need to be fired, but are you saying that it should be limited to A1/AFPC types? I'm not saying that there should be some sort of witch hunt, but I think the CSAF could very quickly gain a lot of that thrust back that has been lost by replacing a few managers with Leaders... and he could start at the Wing Commander level. I have a few old bosses that are O-6/O-7s now who are true leaders that I would follow anywhere. They see the mess and know what they can do to fix it, but they are holding back because if they rock the boat too much they know they will be done, so they just fix what little they think they can. I don't know you, Liquid... but from the majority of your posts on here you sound like you might be one of these types of guys. If the CSAF empowered these Leaders and backed them up with the common sense changes we need... you'd get not only that thrust back, but some of that trust back.

[shweaty]

Spoke to the Mypers service center today and they said they are still waiting on Air Staff to grant waiver authority for upt ADSC's.

[Catbox]

So my TERA app status went to "Validation Complete" on 12 Mar. Since then, no DoS in vMPF, but it was updated 13 Mar, then again today. Anyone else seeing similar stuff?

You have a sep date of 31 jul on your surf?

[Fiver]

D.C. is shutdown today, due to weather. People are teleworking on St. Patty's Day. I wouldn't expect a whole lot of movement today as I am sure AFPC needs some official guidance on how to proceed given the announcement was not made until Friday evening/Saturday morning.

[Mountain]

Catbox- Nothing there either. I think they're just teasing me by playing wih it. STS.

[Catbox]

Catbox- Nothing there either. I think they're just teasing me by playing wih it. STS.

LOL...if you would have told me 60+ days ago when I applied for a voluntary program that was in both my best interest and the best interest of the Air Force (according to them...at the time) that I'd be sitting here with no answer as to what my future holds, I would have said you were crazy.

Tease on big blue.

[shweaty]

They are also sending out a new psdm 14-08 dated 13 March 14. Update RRA which talks about the recoup of VSP money if you get a retirement later on.

[Mish_Hacker]

The new 14-08 has minor adjustments to: 1) Date of separation for FSB eligible applicants who want to VSP (such that their separation date allows them 6 years TOS), 2) Specifying that an O-6 or GS-equivalent must coordinate (recommend or not recommend) your application, and 3) adds an exception to the IRR agreement regarding the recoupment of VSP funds in the event you qualify for disability.

It also says that you do not have to have a justification for ADSC remaining in the remarks when you apply. It then keeps the reference to 13-65 and ADSC waivers....

No word yet on UPT ADSC waivers, but now that we've cleared up these major issues with 14-08, I guess it is time to apply?

[lossofclocklossofdata]

The new 14-08 has minor adjustments to: 1) Date of separation for FSB eligible applicants who want to VSP (such that their separation date allows them 6 years TOS), 2) Specifying that an O-6 or GS-equivalent must coordinate (recommend or not recommend) your application, and 3) adds an exception to the IRR agreement regarding the recoupment of VSP funds in the event you qualify for disability.

It also says that you do not have to have a justification for ADSC remaining in the remarks when you apply. It then keeps the reference to 13-65 and ADSC waivers....

No word yet on UPT ADSC waivers, but now that we've cleared up these major issues with 14-08, I guess it is time to apply?

So no new 13-130 which is supposed to cover RIF and VSP for RIF eligible officers. Can we safely assume that 14-08 supercedes 13-130 now for RIF eligible officers applying for VSP?

[lossofclocklossofdata]

Fantastic stall technique. Next AF.mil story: "Force management programs are on hold for the next few weeks while we allow all airmen time to accept and sign the new IRR agreement in PSDM 14-08."

[BitteEinBit]

BT,

I don't know. CSAF decided to protect LRS-B by cutting force structure. 500 aircraft and a bunch of people. You would think personnel cuts would be related to aircraft cuts but they didn't look at that early on. They only looked at "overmanning" in AFSCs and year groups. This FMP has been an absolute fiasco and people should be fired. They won't be fired because we are too nice to each. We tolerate incompetence and mission failure. We only fire people if they embarrass us, which is wrong. I would love to know how many people A1 and AFPC have ever been relieved of their duties. Not many I guess. You are not asking too much. Our senior leadership has let down many people and this loss of trust will be difficult to regain. Keep nailing the PI and TOT and try to not get too frustrated by the uncertainty.

Liquid,

Thanks for the honest, straight-forward post. I expect to see this from the people running this FSP or at least admit that mistakes were made...but of course, nothing. Again, we've been doing these cuts annually since 2007...and we did the EXACT SAME THING in 2011 but on a smaller scale. I'm having a difficult time believing no one saw this coming. If they didn't see it, then we have the wrong people managing this force. It is embarrassing, so yes, people should be fired.

BT

[MooseAg03]

This is ridiculous. I've already submitted 2 different IRR agreements, and my second application hasn't made it past the "Referred to Wing Commander" stage.

[lossofclocklossofdata]

This is ridiculous. I've already submitted 2 different IRR agreements, and my second application hasn't made it past the "Referred to Wing Commander" stage.

Did you upload it via vMPF by "changing your application?" If so you should have uploaded via mypers. It won't reroute to sq/wg CC. I made the same mistake with the SOU. Called TFSC and they skipped it through the wickets with a note that there was no actual change to the app, just a doc upload. Cool thing was, TFSC changed the wg/cc coordination from recommended disapproval to approval. ???

Edited March 17, 2014 by lossofclocklossofdata

[BamaC-21]

VSP or 365, how are you applying for more than one program at once? I was only able to apply for one at a time in MyPers.

[lossofclocklossofdata]

VSP or 365, how are you applying for more than one program at once? I was only able to apply for one at a time in MyPers.

I think Moose is saying he selected the change application option in vMPF IOT add the IRR which reroutes the app back through the sq/wg CC, not that he added another app. Edited March 17, 2014 by lossofclocklossofdata

[MooseAg03]

Where do you go in MyPers to upload it?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lossofclocklossofdata]

"My account" at top. Should show your incidents which will include a cms # for TFSCs request for you to upload SOU (in my case). If you click on an incident you can upload a new doc. If you've already changed the app in vMPF though I'd call TFSC so they can "fix the glitch" and avoid T'ing off the wing king and changing his mind.

[zach braff]

What happens when Airmen denied VSP are subsequently RIFed other than leadership's loss of what little credibility they still have?

The Force shaping PDSM was amended to state that if somebody is denied a VSP then subsequently cut, they can reapply for VSP - so they can still deny you but then boot you, but if they do you can get the 1.25% sep pay.

I imagine they'll do the same for RIF. But who knows.

[shweaty]

A little more in depth explanation for the ADSC waivers.

https://mobile.airforcetimes.com/article/20140317/CAREERS/303170022

[Lumbergh]

A little more in depth explanation for the ADSC waivers.

https://mobile.airforcetimes.com/article/20140317/CAREERS/303170022

From the article...

"The Air Force could not make these waiver delegation determinations earlier because the service needed to have a better idea of who was going to apply, he said.

'You don't know who's applying,' Cox said. 'Before you can go get a delegation of authority, you need to understand what it is that you need to waive, if it's required.'"

So, basically, we told everyone they were eligible in Dec, then wasted your fvcking time because we didn't know who would apply and what waivers we would need. And we suck at doing our jobs and managing the force. Did I miss something?

How about we research what is needed to voluntarily or involuntarily separate every AFSC that requires a reduction in manning and then release the appropriate information to the masses?

HOLY INCOMPETENCE BATMAN!!!

Edited March 17, 2014 by Lumbergh

[BitteEinBit]

From the article...

"The Air Force could not make these waiver delegation determinations earlier because the service needed to have a better idea of who was going to apply, he said.

'You don't know who's applying,' Cox said. 'Before you can go get a delegation of authority, you need to understand what it is that you need to waive, if it's required.'"

So, basically, we told everyone they were eligible in Dec, then wasted your fvcking time because we didn't know who would apply and what waivers we would need. And we suck at doing our jobs and managing the force. Did I miss something?

How about we research what is needed to voluntarily or involuntarily separate every AFSC that requires a reduction in manning and then release the appropriate information to the masses?

HOLY INCOMPETENCE BATMAN!!!

LOL. Dude, I must misunderstand what it is that AFPC does for a living. I must have it all wrong.

Here is what I think they are supposed to do: Come up with manpower requirements/billets to meet NSS objectives. If there is an overage in some areas, target the cuts to manage those overages. If you have a shortage of say Intel Officers, you don't cut them. If you have an overage of Cops, you cut them. Seems simple right?!?

Here is what they actually do: Identify both critical and non-critical overage and shortage AFSCs, cut evenly across the board. Scratch head and wonder why we still have overages and even more shortages.

I can only imagine what goes on at those staff meetings. I almost feel like I'm watching an SNL skit.

[Mish_Hacker]

A little more in depth explanation for the ADSC waivers.

https://mobile.airforcetimes.com/article/20140317/CAREERS/303170022

So, does this mean no UPT waivers? If so, are no officers with a UPT ADSC going to be RIF eligible? How could you have 5,000 of 10,000 applications not eligible -- Answer: Unclear guidance. If you didn't know what you were doing when you started, don't try to blame it on those poor saps who applied...

[Bender]

I would love to know how many people A1 and AFPC have ever been relieved of their duties.

I have no idea how many have been relieved of their duties (if I were to guess, I would guess low), but I can tell you how many have been promoted right in the middle of it. The answer is notably not zero.

Bendy

[Bender]

LOL. Dude, I must misunderstand what it is that AFPC does for a living. I must have it all wrong.

Here is what I think they are supposed to do: Come up with manpower requirements/billets to meet NSS objectives. If there is an overage in some areas, target the cuts to manage those overages. If you have a shortage of say Intel Officers, you don't cut them. If you have an overage of Cops, you cut them. Seems simple right?!?

Here is what they actually do: Identify both critical and non-critical overage and shortage AFSCs, cut evenly across the board. Scratch head and wonder why we still have overages and even more shortages.

I can only imagine what goes on at those staff meetings. I almost feel like I'm watching an SNL skit.

Every year the line of the Air Force competes multiple AFSCs against one another to promote an overall specific number into the next grade as authorized. There is no consideration for manning within a specific AFSC (i.e. we need more captains in SF, or less Majors in Rated positions [also not individually accounted for a la 11M vs. 11F]). That said, it's "unfair" to begin doing it differently once an AFSC is overmanned, meaning no promotions within that AFSC that year. It needed to be done all along to maintain the correct experience levels within each AFSC.

I'd be curious to know the promotion percentages within each AFSC and overall if promotion boards considered records by AFSC. I wouldn't be surprised if overall, they were very similar to the percentages that are used by the Line of the Air Force promotion boards. A little lower here one year, a little higher there one year...

It's not ideally about how to "force reduce" correctly, it's more about how to "force produce" correctly. That takes preparation and use of Force Management processes that are permanent parts of the way of doing business.

Bendy