FY 14 Force Management Program (RIF, VSP, TERA)

[TnkrToad]

//sarcasm// You must be new. //sarcasm off// Once a process like this has the flood gates open, leadership will fight tooth and nail to keep it open. How else will people get combat desk experience if they turn off the 365s? The same thing happened with deployments out of Mildenhall back around 06-08. We started deploying to help out the super tanker wings cuz AFPC couldn't manage the new copilots coming out of UPT. It was only supposed to last for a year or two because we were flying 9+ lines per day with 12 jets. We weren't manned for deployments on top of that but we did it. Can't confirm but I'm assuming they're still deploying. Too many good opr bullets from deploying....

Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!

Not trying to pick on you, but for the tanker dudes on this forum, just want to correct a misunderstanding. The below is a bit of a rant, but I hope some will find it educational):

- Deploying crews from Mildenhall at that time is an example of the Air Force doing something right

- During the timeframe in question, Mildenhall planes and pilots were literally flying half as much as those in AMC . . . despite the fact that AMC units were getting flooded with copilots as well

- Prior to the decision to deploy crews (but not jets) from Mildenhall, the average pilot there--based on annual flying hour program and number of pilots--would fly about 150 hours per year in Mildenhall jets. The vast majority of the flying done by Mildenhall crews were local sorties, so TDY rates on a per-aircrew basis was insanely low. The jets weren't exactly overtaxed, either; they flew on average just over one hour per day

-- The "fix" for this was to put two copilots on each sortie, so one could log useless "Other" time, and hence double the flight hours that could otherwise have logged

- With the 80+ pilots sitting at Mildenhall (none of them deploying downrange--aside for individual taskings from the AEF Center), and such an abysmally low flying hour program for the number of pilots, deploying Mildenhall crews was way overdue

- I have trouble buying in to the notion that 80+ pilots (read 40+ pilot teams) were incapable of handling the pressure of 9+ sorties/day. This "extreme" number of daily sorties was only met on weekdays. Weekend requirements were far from onerous

- Based on my rough math, Mildenhall pilots--without the AOR deployments--could expect to fly less than a 3.0 sortie once a week (unless they hopped on an additional sortie to log Other time), and when said individual did go TDY, as indicated above the locales weren't all that bad

- Meanwhile, in mother AMC, crew dawgs were gone 180 days/year, sitting homeland defense alert when at home (in addition flying operational and training missions), and when they did deploy they generally went to crapholes. Their flying experience might have been too weighted toward standardized missions in the AOR, but at least they were flying real operational missions (not "operational" missions flown round-robin from home station to refuel German fighters)

-- Once Mildenhall took on the burden of deploying a meager amount of crews downrange, the average copilot might deploy on one 90-day deployment per year. That deployment would more than double the flying hours that said copilot would have gotten at home station

Bottom line: the notion that the Mildenhall pilots and aircraft situation was anything other than a gross waste of resources--both before and after supporting downrange requirements--is still poorly understood among tanker crews (at least those who got to enjoy the good life at Mildenhall)

Here's the real issue: the tankers at Mildenhall are owned by EUCOM (via USAFE), rather than TRANSCOM (via AMC).

- In the '06-'08 timeframe, EUCOM clung to its toys and people (Mildenhall tankers and crews), with the result that AMC aircraft and crews' utilization rates had to take up the slack that Mildenhall and (probably Kadena, although I don't know their story) could have helped take up. Mildenhall crews benefited from screwed up Combatant Command relationships

- If Mildenhall crews truly are getting crushed relative to their AMC peers (sounds suspect, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt), I assume that the same screwed up COCOM relationship is again to blame. The perception among Mildenhall crews that they are overworked can only be due to one of two reasons:

-- They really are overburdened relative to AMC crews, and USAFE/EUCOM staff are unwilling or unable to get additional people and planes CHOP'd to theater to meet requirements. Given that EUCOM staffs are largely populated by Army dudes, it wouldn't surprise me to hear that the EUCOM staff is tone deaf to reason and logic.

-- Mildenhall aircrew perceptions are inaccurate. USAFE/EUCOM staff can't get more people or planes into theater, because there's no logical basis for doing so. I don't know enough about the current situation to determine which of the two possibilities is more true

I know I'm just picking on Mildenhall, but I suspect that Kadena tankers and crews were just as grossly underutilized--if not worse--than Mildenhall ones during the '06-'08 timeframe (if not for long after that). I hope one day we'll finally figure out how to reasonably spread the pain among stateside and overseas based tankers (and other platforms, too).

NKAWTG,

Tnkr Toad

[Mountain]

FYI. We got a response back from an inquiry started in our squadron. Zero bureaucracy. Zero time waste. (For us).

Damn glad to hear it, brother. I got responses too, but they were non-answer answers. Very frustrating.

[HoHum]

Gents and ladies,

This moment of introspection has been interesting, but it's time to get crackin' again. 1 April was rumored to be a deadline....so everybody pimp your CCs and buddies at staff and see what the hell we can dig up before it trickles down the FSS chain.

FYI. We got a response back from an inquiry started in our squadron. Zero bureaucracy. Zero time waste. (For us).

Can you keep us posted on that? Could be interesting.

Edited March 30, 2014 by VSP or 365

[Altus Barbarosa]

To all you guys who are critical of the bitching....remember this. The civilian world does not deploy you to shitholes for years on end. They also don't typically force you to move. You can look for another job and then quit when you find another. Sure are there problems in the civilian world...heck yes. The difference is you have way more control and freedom over your life.

You and I were thinking the same thing.....I'm not afraid to rock the boat....and do so every chance I get these days

The civilian world doesn't pay to train you how to fly at no cost to yourself other than signing up for 10yrs, which is not a hidden requirement. If you want control and freedom then you shouldve gone to work in the civil sector. If you have to finish out your AF contract then do it with some f**king dignity for christs sake.

[2grps]

Altus,

Yep the 10 year ADSC is not a secret.... Makes you wonder how AFPC was unaware of that before they released a matrix stating that certain pilot year groups were eligible... and that it has taken this long to figure it all out. If leaders don't display anything close to dignity, then why should their subordinates? It's obvious that you can make it to the top without.... Just saying

Back to business... Has anyone heard when to expect VSP apps to be processed? I assume AFPC will bust the 1 April deadline for TERA.

Edited March 31, 2014 by 2grps

[Bender]

I'm often surprised at how many people have been brainwashed into the "shut up and color" mentality. If the majority continues to act like nothing is happening by continuing to do as you're told, then nothing will ever change. Instead of degrading those that are dealing with he RIF, TERA, etc, how about the majority join in and demand answers as well. Wait I know why that doesn't happen... It's because no one wants to rock the boat and cause themselves to miss out on that strat...let's face it... Nothing will ever change.

Act like nothing is happening? NOTHING IS HAPPENING. Isn't that the problem?

Hey, I feel for you (I thought I made that perfectly clear about 20 pages back). What exactly is it that you suggest I do (i.e. to "rock the boat") that I'm too afraid to do because it would cause me to miss out on that strat?

I'm not so sure you understand my personality even a little, brother. I would love to help all you guys out if I could...maybe I could call Tony Carr and see if he'd get involved for some publicity to your cause. Oh wait...

To all you guys who are critical of the bitching....remember this. The civilian world does not deploy you to shitholes for years on end. They also don't typically force you to move. You can look for another job and then quit when you find another. Sure are there problems in the civilian world...heck yes. The difference is you have way more control and freedom over your life.

You and I were thinking the same thing.....I'm not afraid to rock the boat....and do so every chance I get these days

Didn't you "want to see the world"? Maybe you got the outdated brochure that didn't have the current schedule and locales. There have only been slight modification to the bochure I got...circa 2003.

Honestly, I'm curious how you define "rock the boat"?

-hurtful words-

Dear lord, man. For the record, you can't get the Airman's Medal for coming to the aid of a stray on the internet. His civilian job won't be any different, and there is a decent likelyhood it will be worse. ...and if he wants nsplayr to "do us a favor and knock it off" (i.e. shut up because he disagrees with me), then he should just follow suit. You don't get to just tell the other guy to stop talking so you can win...both of them should either shut up or respect each others right to bitch as they please...disagreement or not.

By all means, back to "business"...please.

Bendy

[Warrior]

Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!

[Mountain]

FWIW, I liked the "hurtful words" thing. Don't agree with the statement that followed, but that's cool too.

Agreed with Bender. "Back to business."

[chizz]

\.....sounds like a good time to file that IG complaint or maybe forward that little gem with all the other bs that is going on to Air Force Times.....

I've heard a ton of people balk about this, has anyone actually filed an IG complaint yet? If not, stop threatening it. If so, let's hear how it went down. I love how everyone turned on each other so quickly. AFPC on their 2 day vacation is probably sitting back, feet up, waiting for us to take care of this ourselves and then will claim credit.

[aerobat95]

The civilian world doesn't pay to train you how to fly at no cost to yourself other than signing up for 10yrs, which is not a hidden requirement. If you want control and freedom then you shouldve gone to work in the civil sector. If you have to finish out your AF contract then do it with some f**king dignity for christs sake.

If I were to meet you in a dark alley Altus Barbarosa you'd get a piece of my mind.....you are a prick and a bully....go ###### youself....Im done with this blog....I wish you all the best of luck in the future

Edited March 31, 2014 by aerobat95

[FUSEPLUG]

[Skitzo]

This place is becoming like student pilot.net.

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[Fiver]

I feel like I'm in an AOL chat room circa 1996.

Back to business... UPT waiver is 6 years and aviator retention pay is waived too. Only thing that looks like it won't get waived is weapons school.

Get yo popcorn ready... Bullies

[ThreeHoler]

If I were to meet you in a dark alley Altus Barbarosa you'd get a piece of my mind.....you are a prick and a bully....go ###### youself....Im done with this blog....I wish you all the best of luck in the future

Ladies and gents, this is 100% how to be a SNAP.

Although by his old fart insistence on calling a forum a blog, he is some sort of sensitive old ass pilot. New term: SOAP.

[FUSEPLUG]

Back to business... UPT waiver is 6 years and aviator retention pay is waived too. Only thing that looks like it won't get waived is weapons school.

Source?

[USAF Pilot]

This place is becoming like student pilot.net.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hey now, it's not that bad yet!

[HoHum]

Source?

Seconded.

Edited March 31, 2014 by VSP or 365

[FallingOsh]

Back to business... UPT waiver is 6 years and aviator retention pay is waived too. Only thing that looks like it won't get waived is weapons school.

Edited March 31, 2014 by FallingOsh

[Tnkr]

I'm responding on my phone and don't know how to do all the fancy stuff on here. I'll inject my comments in the quote starting and ending with a colon.

Not trying to pick on you, but for the tanker dudes on this forum, just want to correct a misunderstanding. The below is a bit of a rant, but I hope some will find it educational):

- Deploying crews from Mildenhall at that time is an example of the Air Force doing something right

:depends on the timeframe you speak of. I was there for nearly five years so I saw a lot of things cycle.:

- During the timeframe in question, Mildenhall planes and pilots were literally flying half as much as those in AMC . . . despite the fact that AMC units were getting flooded with copilots as well

:for your first point, Mildenhall instructors were getting destroyed because AFPC didn't manage the copilots well. I was on the tail end of all the copilots. If memory serves there were over 30 copilots at egun. And planes were flying so much that Mx couldn't get routine work done. We would surge lines until Mx earned enough surge points to cash in a down day. That might not be the exact verbiage but it's how I remember it. As the cycle progressed and older copilots PCSd or upgraded (it's only a 2 yr assignment for unaccompanied) we flew a lot of dual AC lines because the Co pipeline to Mildenhall had been closed down. :

- Prior to the decision to deploy crews (but not jets) from Mildenhall, the average pilot there--based on annual flying hour program and number of pilots--would fly about 150 hours per year in Mildenhall jets.

:true, but only until about mid 06. :

The vast majority of the flying done by Mildenhall crews were local sorties, so TDY rates on a per-aircrew basis was insanely low. The jets weren't exactly overtaxed, either; they flew on average just over one hour per day

: Erroneous, or at least I have no idea how you came to this number. As far as TDYs, it was slower in the 04-06 timeframe but not by much. 06-09 I averaged about 200 days per year, give or take 30. :

-- The "fix" for this was to put two copilots on each sortie, so one could log useless "Other" time, and hence double the flight hours that could otherwise have logged

:two? I can remember flights with 4-6 pilots on board. When I first got on station I didn't fly for the first month I was available. There just weren't enlighten fenced training lines. I was too young then to understand why. I just remember it being an f'ing circus. :

- With the 80+ pilots sitting at Mildenhall (none of them deploying downrange--aside for individual taskings from the AEF Center), and such an abysmally low flying hour program for the number of pilots, deploying Mildenhall crews was way overdue

:I agree-at first. The problems came after the start of 08. We were supporting a lot of the recce missions plus the foreign mil sales seemed to go up. The issue was the crossover when one crew had to spin up until the return crew took post deployment leave. And BTW, up to this point I haven't had any issue with your points, but to imply we were only 'sitting' is a bit insulting. Sorry we weren't burning holes over Iraq, but don't assume we were sitting. That Christmas party isn't going to plan itself. :

- I have trouble buying in to the notion that 80+ pilots (read 40+ pilot teams) were incapable of handling the pressure of 9+ sorties/day. This "extreme" number of daily sorties was only met on weekdays. Weekend requirements were far from onerous

: Again, I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from. 80 pilots seems a bit high, but even if it's not we had a wing, group, and OSS to run on top of flying lines. You make it sound like we had some rousing games of monopoly but otherwise didn't do much. Maybe we shouldn't have had a whole wing there, I'm not going to argue that point but it had zero to do with the pilots assigned there. :

- Based on my rough math, Mildenhall pilots--without the AOR deployments--could expect to fly less than a 3.0 sortie once a week (unless they hopped on an additional sortie to log Other time), and when said individual did go TDY, as indicated above the locales weren't all that bad

: I'm confused by the argument here. Are you saying that crews at McConnell or Fairchild were flying 3x per week when home? I'm guessing, based upon my time since mildenhall, the answer is no. In contrast, Mildenhall continued to fly our 'meager' 9 lines per day on top of the deployment taskings they weren't manned for. At the super tanker wing I'm at now the base seems to have a difficult time getting more than about six jets airborne in one day. And f you wanted your TDYs to go to better locations then you should have either joined the guard or done better at pilot training so you could have had Mildenhall for your assignment. Did that sound condescending? Because your points , though valid in places, is taking that tone as well. :

- Meanwhile, in mother AMC, crew dawgs were gone 180 days/year, sitting homeland defense alert when at home (in addition flying operational and training missions), and when they did deploy they generally went to crapholes. Their flying experience might have been too weighted toward standardized missions in the AOR, but at least they were flying real operational missions (not "operational" missions flown round-robin from home station to refuel German fighters)

:And we're back to condescension. If your 'operational' missions from home station are tasked by TACC and mine are tasked by AMD are they not both operational? Did you know we sat alert? Every time the president came over, among other high profile events. We weren't always tasked for alpha so it wasn't always the burden that others had, but we still did all this. My point in my first post about hours was no shot at CONUS tanker crews, and if taken that way then please accept my apologies. But again, if your point is to bag on the contributions of pilots at Mildenhall, you're coming across as someone jealous of those that we're able to secure that assignment. :

-- Once Mildenhall took on the burden of deploying a meager amount of crews downrange, the average copilot might deploy on one 90-day deployment per year. That deployment would more than double the flying hours that said copilot would have gotten at home station

:Erroneous. By the time we started deploying the flux of copilots had passed. We were heavy on ACs not copilots, and low on people overall. Yes, most pilots only did one rotation per year unless they asked to do more. But remember that most of the people at Mildenhall at this point weren't fresh out of UPT like when I got there in 04. At this point there were perhaps around 15 copilots. The vast majority of pilots around the 07 timeframe when the deployments started where transplants from the super tanker wings. They were some of the most burned out people I'd seen in the AF at that point. And we still flew every TDY to Africa and Europe, still met or deployment taskings, and everything else that was asked of us. :

Bottom line: the notion that the Mildenhall pilots and aircraft situation was anything other than a gross waste of resources--both before and after supporting downrange requirements--is still poorly understood among tanker crews (at least those who got to enjoy the good life at Mildenhall)

:Good life? Yes. Waste of resources? Only if you didn't get assigned there, I guess. :

Here's the real issue: the tankers at Mildenhall are owned by EUCOM (via USAFE), rather than TRANSCOM (via AMC).

- In the '06-'08 timeframe, EUCOM clung to its toys and people (Mildenhall tankers and crews), with the result that AMC aircraft and crews' utilization rates had to take up the slack that Mildenhall and (probably Kadena, although I don't know their story) could have helped take up. Mildenhall crews benefited from screwed up Combatant Command relationships

:this is pretty much the timeframe we started deploying. Explain how us deploying three crews made your workload go up?:

- If Mildenhall crews truly are getting crushed relative to their AMC peers (sounds suspect, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt), I assume that the same screwed up COCOM relationship is again to blame. The perception among Mildenhall crews that they are overworked can only be due to one of two reasons:

:before getting to your reasons, let me highlight that you are the one saying we were crushed. I don't recall saying or implying that. We were busy, but no one at Mildenhall during my time was under the impression that they'd rather be back in AMC. :

-- They really are overburdened relative to AMC crews, and USAFE/EUCOM staff are unwilling or unable to get additional people and planes CHOP'd to theater to meet requirements. Given that EUCOM staffs are largely populated by Army dudes, it wouldn't surprise me to hear that the EUCOM staff is tone deaf to reason and logic.

-- Mildenhall aircrew perceptions are inaccurate. USAFE/EUCOM staff can't get more people or planes into theater, because there's no logical basis for doing so. I don't know enough about the current situation to determine which of the two possibilities is more true

:I have no idea if USAFE was asking for more tanker crews and I don't think we could have handled more jets without a bigger Mx tail. As I said , neither my comments nor anything I've heard or read makes me think that anyone would compare Mildenhall to, say, McConnell I terms of sheer suck factor. If nothing else, they were in Wichita and we were in England. But your implication is that Mildenhall was a jaunt about the countryside waiting for the Russians to come over the gap. :

I know I'm just picking on Mildenhall, but I suspect that Kadena tankers and crews were just as grossly underutilized--if not worse--than Mildenhall ones during the '06-'08 timeframe (if not for long after that). I hope one day we'll finally figure out how to reasonably spread the pain among stateside and overseas based tankers (and other platforms, too).

NKAWTG,

: I'm not sure what happened to the end of the quote and I'm après sivas to see how this long-ass post turns out. In the end my point was that hours out of England were diverse just not as plentiful as back home bases. But to insinuate that we weren't doing what we were tasked to do, or were somehow ducking responsibility, is frankly offensive. Tanker toad , I doubt you meant to come across like that but if you did, my response is above. I have no idea where you were stationed during this time frame but it doesn't sound like you were stationed with me at moldyhole. Anyway, I hope between these three posts the young guys get a sense of how Mildenhall is. It's honestly likely somewhere between Toad's thoughts and my memories. With that, I'm for bed. 'Nite all.

Tnkr Toad

[Tnkr]

You know, rereading my last post, I want to apologize for derailing this thread.

Tanker Toad, I should have discussed this with you over a PM.

I'm sorry to anyone that wasted their lives reading my last. If you need me, I'll be in the dungeon serving my penitence. Please, let's get back to hating on AFPC.

Edited March 31, 2014 by Tnkr

[Nasty2004]

I'm responding on my phone and don't know how to do all the fancy stuff on here. I'll inject my comments in the quote starting and ending with a colon.

TL;DR

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[TERA applicant]

Anyone else receive a message this weekend from AFPC asking you to submit your SOU? Not sure if that is a sign that AFPC is getting close to sending out approvals.

[Catbox]

Anyone else receive a message this weekend from AFPC asking you to submit your SOU? Not sure if that is a sign that AFPC is getting close to sending out approvals.

I did, and judging by the level of panic on the Facebook page over the SOU, everyone else did as well.

[aerobat95]

I would like to offer an apology to the forum and especially Altus. You were just stating and opinion and honestly the obvious. Stress got the better of me and I sincerely apologize. I do wish everyone the best of luck in the coming months.

[Tnkr]

TL;DR

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't know what this means. Have I reached the age where the internet codes have passed me by?