Stop Loss Cometh

[HeloDude]

He just meant that it stayed at $25K per year, which is the same as it has been for over a decade. All that changed were the options and durations.

I knew when writing my post someone would make this comment...though I thought it would be General Dumbass and not an actual rated guy.

The 'Bonus', ie ACP in years past, is not just about a monetary annual payment of $25K...it has to do with who is legible, how many years people can receive this amount, half up front or not, and so on. So again, the 'Bonus' is not the same as it has been year after year and is vastly different compared to what it was in 90's. If all Big Blue had to do was toss out the words 'twenty-five thousand dollars' to get guys to stay in, why are they changing the terms compared to last year? If everything is so great for the AF, why are they willing to spend more money on fighter guys this year compared to last year?...and in such a tougher year with regards to sequestration?

I know Hacker and most other rated dudes understand this, but General Dumbass will try and tell us that everything is the same...though clearly they are not. And as for the 'annual amount' being the same (which I never said it was not), $25K has quite a bit less buying power that it did 15 years ago, but I digress.

[General Chang]

I knew when writing my post someone would make this comment...though I thought it would be General Dumbass and not an actual rated guy.

The 'Bonus', ie ACP in years past, is not just about a monetary annual payment of $25K...it has to do with who is legible, how many years people can receive this amount, half up front or not, and so on. So again, the 'Bonus' is not the same as it has been year after year and is vastly different compared to what it was in 90's. If all Big Blue had to do was toss out the words 'twenty-five thousand dollars' to get guys to stay in, why are they changing the terms compared to last year? If everything is so great for the AF, why are they willing to spend more money on fighter guys this year compared to last year?...and in such a tougher year with regards to sequestration?

I know Hacker and most other rated dudes understand this, but General Dumbass will try and tell us that everything is the same...though clearly they are not. And as for the 'annual amount' being the same (which I never said it was not), $25K has quite a bit less buying power that it did 15 years ago, but I digress.

Hmmm...you say that the bonus is significantly better, then you make my point for me talking about the value of $25K per year while calling me names. Again, don't delude yourself Mr. Helo; $25K per year is all you'll be offered. And for only 5 years. Take solace, however...you won't be stop-lossed if you don't take it. :-)

[Smokin]

See? Even the "disgruntled majority" (so-called) are taking the bonus. I rest my case.

And his disgruntled "sit back" attitude is exactly what the AF is looking for right? (not calling you out di, just proving a point)

Meanwhile, I'd say a solid 40% of the fighter equivalent to water cooler talk is of what guys are going to do when they get out. I had never heard of anything like that around the squadron when I was a Lt. And I've seen more guys 7 day in the last year than the rest of my career combined. May not be a majority (yet), but they were some of our better guys. And worse for the AF, many were the senior IPs the young Lts looked up to. Seeing them punch successfully is reducing the hesitation for future 7 dayers.

[WAG]

Concur at P-gon. Like I said, senior leaders are not worried in the slightest (reference pilot bonus staying the same annually). .

So why did the senior leaders decide to spend $100k to buy 4 more years from these dudes if they are not worried? The new Air Force welfare system?

The annual amount remains the same but why are you making the duration and total amount an irrelevant issue?

Edited August 5, 2013 by WAG

[BitteEinBit]

So why did the senior leaders decide to spend $100k to buy 4 more years from these dudes if they are not worried? The new Air Force welfare system?

This is a lazy man's force management tool...easier to manage a rated force with an (additional) 10-year ADSC than having to worry about how to keep them in at the 4th or 5th year when their ADSC is almost up/up. They bought another 4 years for more time to think about keeping you or RIFing you without your input. That and there is a potential shortage in our future ;) Insurance...

[WAG]

This is a lazy man's force management tool...easier to manage a rated force with an (additional) 10-year ADSC than having to worry about how to keep them in at the 4th or 5th year when their ADSC is almost up/up. They bought another 4 years for more time to think about keeping you or RIFing you without your input. That and there is a potential shortage in our future ;) Insurance...

I see what you are saying, but your first explanation does not explain why they would discriminate between 11Fs and the other pilots when they have the same ADSC... This leads me to believe that your last your reason is more correct. Therefore, senior leaders are concerned. Otherwise they wouldn't have put big blue another $100k in the hole.

Edited August 5, 2013 by WAG

[BitteEinBit]

You're correct...they are worried about a shortage. My first point was just trying to illustrate the relevance of the duration increase. I think what Chang was trying to say is that they aren't worried about the amount being the same because money (rather, the appearance of more money) is going to keep bubbas in service anyway (in theory). Jury is still out on that one...

[Hueypilot]

As others have said, I'd argue that the truth is somewhere in the middle...between the "exodus" point of view and General Chang's "everything's just fine" attitude. FWIW, I've seen quite a few of my fellow experienced pilots punch out, as did I. Seems the only ones staying in are the guys who feel they have a future climbing up the box-checking ladder and the dudes who don't have the option of separating. Anyone else who has any experience is actively trying to separate.

GC, you're probably correct that a number of people will take the bonus and stay in, but you're missing the point that a very significant chunk of the USAF's core of experience is leaving. It doesn't surprise me though, given what a certain AMC CV had said once to a group of Herk guys..."leave if you want, don't let the door hit you on the way out, because we've got a shiny new LT to replace you in the seat."

Good luck with that.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Hueypilot

[Catbox]

Concur at P-gon. Like I said, senior leaders are not worried in the slightest (reference pilot bonus staying the same annually). A few disgruntled pilots on BODN does not a crisis make. Mark my words- pilots will stick around for the assurance of great compensation and a decent bonus program. As I've said all along, there are no studies to indicate even the hint of a troubling exodus of pilots to the airlines until 2017 earliest, if ever.

You do not need to fear for the future of your beloved Air Force...it is in good hands.

Ok but the recent past hasn't been so hot, the present is confusing as all hell...but you're saying the future is going to be smooth sailing?

[di1630]

See? Even the "disgruntled majority" (so-called) are taking the bonus. I rest my case.

Have a great Air Force week.

Lovin it!. I've done 12 years of flying a few fun deployments, no bad TDYs and have 3 more years of flying coming up and was going to stay in even if there was no bonus.

Just because I work in an orgnization that lacks in-touch leadership, common sense and if were a corporation would have been bankrupted years ago, does not make me disgruntled.

[NotADude]

Concur at P-gon. Like I said, senior leaders are not worried in the slightest (reference pilot bonus staying the same annually). A few disgruntled pilots on BODN does not a crisis make. Mark my words- pilots will stick around for the assurance of great compensation and a decent bonus program. As I've said all along, there are no studies to indicate even the hint of a troubling exodus of pilots to the airlines until 2017 earliest, if ever. You do not need to fear for the future of your beloved Air Force...it is in good hands.

So I'm guessing late 2016 is when AFPC will start thinking about their force management policies wrt pilots. Gee, it's really too bad my ADSC will be up by then, I'm really going to miss the leadership by knee-jerk!

I really hope his last sentence was sarcastic.

[Rusty Pipes]

Like I said, senior leaders are not worried in the slightest (reference pilot bonus staying the same annually). A few disgruntled pilots on BODN does not a crisis make.

You do not need to fear for the future of your beloved Air Force...it is in good hands.

Define "senior leaders"... In the past year I have heard two 4 Stars and a 3 Star in three separate Q&A forums say they are seriously concerned with both pilot shortage and pilot retention issues with the immediate concern being 11F, but in reality it is with pilots in general. They were asked this question directly all 3 times (not by me). Are you saying these Generals were just paying lip service to the group of pilots they were talking to? I am not an A1 guy and I don't see the numbers that AFPC and the Puzzle Palace have, but what I have seen is experienced guys 7 day opting on a regular basis for the past 18 months or so... which I have never seen in my entire career. As it was alluded to earlier in this thread, this is now talked about openly in Squadrons where it never would have been just 2-3 years ago.

What would be very telling, but something that would surely never be released is the number of takes for the ACP with their current duty station. I have several friends that have taken the bonus and all of them are in one form of school or another. So if the vast majority of those who signed the bonus were those who were planning on staying in (and won't even be actually flying for 4 of the 5 yrs of the bonus between school and Staff) is that considered a "victory" for these senior leaders? Serious question...

Edited August 5, 2013 by Rusty Pipes

[C17Driver]

What would be very telling, but something that would surely never be released is the number of takes for the ACP with their current duty station. I have several friends that have taken the bonus and all of them are in one form of school or another. So if the vast majority of those who signed the bonus were those who were planning on staying in (and won't even be actually flying for 4 of the 5 yrs of the bonus between school and Staff) is that considered a "victory" for these senior leaders? Serious question...

ACP numbers by base are released and available on the AF Statistics website. I don't have the link at home, but a quick search on the portal brings it up. Numbers based on MDS, MWS, base, MAJCOM, etc are all provided.

[NotADude]

He has been portraying himself as a somewhat "senior" leader. Perhaps he is. We're left to assume he's referring to himself when he says the AF is in good hands. Remember, he's managing numbers, not people. From his perspective, things likely do look fine. Most of you AD Ops guys believe there are serious problems. The leadership (Chang) honestly believe there aren't any and no drastic changes need to occur. Why the hell would anyone stick around for the situation that's going to create? Just curious, is there anyone here that is unconditionally leaving AD at the first available opportunity?

Yep, I'll be submitting my Palace Chase paperwork in a week and a half (which will get denied), and then I will keep applying until it's approved or my ADSC is up anyway.

[Rusty Pipes]

ACP numbers by base are released and available on the AF Statistics website. I don't have the link at home, but a quick search on the portal brings it up. Numbers based on MDS, MWS, base, MAJCOM, etc are all provided.

I guess the true picture I'm talking about would be a snap shot in Oct or Nov. My buddy who was joking about taking the bonus last week (11M) was driving to his "school" assignment, but signed at his losing base so the stats may be skewed a bit. Hey, he was eligible and is going to be on AD for that whole 5 yrs so I'm glad he is getting the cash, but I'm seriously curious as to how many of those who sign had every intention of staying whether they were offered the bonus or not?

[moosepileit]

No way he was any type of aircrew. Period. Next pithy Liquid banter, please. Perfect lil emperor has no clothes avatar, too.

[BFM this]

Just curious, is there anyone here that is unconditionally leaving AD at the first available opportunity?

I will be within 3 years of an AD retirement when my commitment is up. I am researching my Res/ANG options. Some may think this a dumb move. I'm not saying that I am committed to that option at this point. Check of the month, TFL, sure; it's a gamble that those would still be around if I stretched my timeline out.

What would be a leap of faith for me, if I instead choose to take another assignment, is that the General Changs of AFPC won't pull another TAMI-21 or in some other dumbshit way send me back to this trailer park hell again. Lesson learned.

Oh yeah: $25k per year to own my ass for anything more than 3 years? No. Fucking. Way. It will take substantially more than that before I give up the option to tell Big Blue to GFY.

Edited August 5, 2013 by BFM this

[El-Fist]

Just curious, is there anyone here that is unconditionally leaving AD at the first available opportunity?

I punched very recently. I was at the 12 year mark. It wasn't because I hated AD, leadership, or my job. In fact, I loved the job. My thing was I wanted to call my own shots, live where I wanted to live, and I had no desire to go to staff, or PCS anymore. I was ready to grow some roots. I also figured if I was going to have a bit of a pay cut for a while, now was the time to do it. (Kid's are young and I don't have much debt.)

I was fortunate enough to have an ANG gig lined up in my hometown, so that will help with the $$ for a while. Plus, I didn't want to totally give up "the life" and serving in some capacity. I don't have another job quite yet, but I do believe that there will be some opportunity in the airlines coming up. Sure, it may not the "hiring boom" some are suggesting but if I am fortunate enough to land a job, I think there is a better chance to gain seniority now than there has been in quite some time... I get it, it's not a perfect industry, and I am not stupid enough to think that I'll be sitting in the right seat of a FedEx jet in a few months, but I'm pretty sure I'll find something to do...

I have ZERO regrets at this point, and I'm VERY happy with the decision. I've seen my family more in the last three months than I have in the past decade. I've been hanging out at the beach, drinking, and having a hell of a summer just doing shit I like to do. Sure, there's some uncertainty ahead, but I'm confident things will be just fine without the security of AD.

Hey, if the bottom completely falls out of my plan, I can just come back to AD because the manning plan is so fu%*ed up, I may even score a huge sign on bonus!

Good luck to anyone else getting ready to make the decision...

[Vetter]

Just curious, is there anyone here that is unconditionally leaving AD at the first available opportunity?

Yep, I did. I turned down continuation and left "involuntarily" without a dime from the .mil. I'm slightly scared shitless, but one of the first things I am going to do is ditch my horribly negative attitude. Not being in the AF will help drastically. Good luck to y'all.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Vetter

[Magnum]

Just curious, is there anyone here that is unconditionally leaving AD at the first available opportunity?

Yes. Palace chase application submitted...we'll see. In the past 6 months my squadron has seen 4 dudes either PC or just separate. In fact, since getting to my current squadron, I think I've seen 2 dudes take an assignment.

[Chuck17]

Hey, he was eligible and is going to be on AD for that whole 5 yrs so I'm glad he is getting the cash, but I'm seriously curious as to how many of those who sign had every intention of staying whether they were offered the bonus or not?

I signed the paperwork once I arrived at school. Before I signed the ACP, I had to sign a 4-YEAR commitment to attend school in-res - one year for the PCS, three for the school. Same for anyone who is going to In-Res. So those of us who were eligible for this years ACP, AND were or are going to school, are already committed for 4 years anyway. "They" essentially gave me 125 grand for another years service. Instead of 4 years for school, I'm on the hook for 5 for the ACP. I stay an extra year, make bank, and end up at the 16 year point when it is all said and done. If that sends me to some shithole for a year, so be it. I will take my check o' the month club payout at 42 years old, thank you very much.

YMMV.

"WTF Chuck? Why are you sharing this BS I dont care about?" you say... Well, there is plenty of shit-on-the-AF-talk here at Baseops. This isnt a bleed blue rant. This is a "YGBSM" rant. Why? Because YGBSM that they are handing me a check for 5 years after telling me I am already committed for 4. That is the most backwards thinking I have ever heard of. There is no reason that people like me are the target. If I am the target, this whole program is FUCKED and needs to be scuttled. Why? Because I was going to stay anyway. I needed ZERO additional motivation to continue my service. This ACP program needs to be geared toward people who are on the fence. And that means UPPING THE ANTE to keep the guys who are the core of experience. Do you have to scuttle the entire program and start over? Nah. You need to compensate dudes like me, but dudes who are facing no motivation to stay require a hell of a lot more than the paltry stipend that is currently offered. Up theirs, not mine. You've got me. We need THEM.

Just a thought, and hoping to keep the conversation going. Cheers.

Chuck

[Techsan]

If I am the target, this whole program is FUCKED and needs to be scuttled. Why? Because I was going to stay anyway.

Chuck

Shhhh! I haven't signed the bonus yet.

[ellsworb]

Just curious, is there anyone here that is unconditionally leaving AD at the first available opportunity?

Yes. I'm out at the first opportunity. Which is in 2 years, assuming I can have 6 months waived on a Palace Chase app.

[Recut]

dudes who are facing no motivation to stay require a hell of a lot more than the paltry stipend that is currently offered. Up theirs, not mine. You've got me. We need THEM.

Chuck

Good on you for getting the upper hand on the situation - anyone with half a brain would do the same thing

Along with your YGBSM part, I can see the other end of the spectrum on this: A prior E who doesn't qualify for the bonus (has more than 16 TAFMS at ADSC completion) will probably get a 365 instead of a bonus to persuade his/her decision to stay to retirement.............what does someone do in that situation? 1. Take the 365 (win for AF) or 2. Punch (yay, no retirement for you! Also win for AF) Probably part of GC's "we got this" BS...........Uggh

[Tumbleweed]

Just curious, is there anyone here that is unconditionally leaving AD at the first available opportunity?

15 and counting U-28 guys in the past few weeks, over an assignment to Cannon.