Different Roles of CSOs

[acebigdog]

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Edited March 15, 2014 by anjinks

[bronxbomber252]

OK, I'll bite a little...

First off, the plural of aircraft is aircraft, not aircrafts. (not trying to be a dick, but for some reason it irked me and since it was a repeaded thing not just a 1x typo I figured I'd let you know)

As for roles, it really does vary and you are better off asking about specific aircraft because it would be a PITA to try to list them all out, especially when you will learn all this at Pcola anyway, but I will address your examples plus aircraft I have personal experience with.

F-15E (and only the E) has a WSO, his job is weapons and navigation mostly. (maybe a mudhen guy can chime in with better details)

AC-130H and AC-130U have 3 CSO's: a Nav, an EWO, and a Fire Control Officer (you start as a nav or EWO and upgrade to FCO)... Navs navigate, EWO's protect the plane, and the FCO manages the weapons, (Again maybe a Spectre or Spooky guy can chime in with details)

the AC-130W is a whole separate animal and I am unsure what is involved.

now for what I had experience with:

The C-130H has a Nav, who runs the radar, does navigation, directs airdrops, directs Airborne Radar Approaches (ARA's) which are approaches where the Nav basically finds the field on radar and directs the pilots in, operates defensive systems, and operates some other systems for things like flying in formation and such

on the HC-130P the nav does all that but with a few differences and additions, on the HC-130P the nav directs low level flights via radar predominately (vs. visual on the C-130H), the nav directs rendezvous with the Helo's for helo air to air refueling (by finding the helo's on the radar and guiding pilots in), and we do Self contained approaches (SCA's) instead of ARA's (basically lower mins, and a different flight profile. We also have control over the FLIR (forward looking infrared) pod which has IR and TV cameras which help with searches and other things. Other than that its the same except we just use different tactics tailored to the different mission.

On the new HC-130J we are actually called CSO's and the systems change, the plane does more of the navigation stuff, but... the CSO also does comm and operates the refueling panel for refueling the helo's, and such, but I have not flown the J model yet and won't transition to the J until 2015.

Edited August 17, 2013 by bronxbomber252

[Disco_Nav963]

The two jets I've flown:

B-52Hs have 3 CSOs... An EWO who defends the jet, a navigator who navigates, and a radar navigator who manages and delivers the weapons. Prior to ~2008/9, navigators would return to the schoolhouse for radar nav upgrade after (if I recall correctly) at least 400 hours. Since then, new navigators have graduated the schoolhouse qualified in both the nav and RN crew positions, but until you are signed off as "Experienced" (600 hours/90 sorties/complete a local workbook) you can only carry/employ weapons when supervised by an instructor or someone who is "Experienced." (In other words, what used to be a formal course has been replaced by a local upgrade with a lengthy radar nav "internship"... There are advantages and disadvantages to both ways of doing things--to my mind, more disadvantages to the new way--but it saves TDY funds so I doubt it will change soon.)

E-3B/C/Gs have 1 CSO... A navigator who navigates. There is a glass cockpit upgrade called "DRAGON" coming (that's for Diminishing Manufacturing Sources Replacement of Avionics for Global Operations and Navigation) that will get rid of the nav on the jets that receive the upgrade. Problem is, the upgrade is so far behind that the Air Force may be retiring E-3s before all of them are upgraded. The upshot of this is that if you drop E-3s, you have a good chance of not losing your seat for at least the dozen years or so until you go to staff (at that point your career could continue like the KC-135 navs I've met that hit school/staff just before the Pacer CRAG upgrade came online), plus E-3 navs regularly crossflow to the E-8 Joint STARS and RC-135, and less regularly to AFSOC (gunship FCOs and U-28 CSOs), HC-130s, and EC-130Hs. Additionally, a small number of CSOs have performed the role of Electronic Combat Officer (ECO, usually an ABM position) on the jet over the years, and that could become a regular thing if the ACC nav mafia (is there one anymore?) throws their weight around.

[JarheadBoom]

First off, the plural of aircraft is aircraft, not aircrafts. (not trying to be a dick, but for some reason it irked me and since it was a repeaded thing not just a 1x typo I figured I'd let you know)

Nothing like misspelling something, when you're calling someone out for misspelling...

[bronxbomber252]

Nothing like misspelling something, when you're calling someone out for misspelling...

Nice catch! lol

[B0neWs0]

B-1B's have 2 WSOs......further broken down into OSO (offensive system officer) and DSO (defensive system officer). OSO's primary duty is weapons employment, sniper pod operation, navigation, and timing. The DSO's role is to defend the jet against enemy threats such as SAM's and AI's. However, B-1 WSO's are dual qualified and can fly in either seat.

[nsplayr]

Hi there everybody! I am about to be a senior ROTC cadet. I will be a CSO Lieutenant when I graduate in May.

Correction, you'll be an LT and CSO candidate until the day you pin on wings. Don't get ahead of yourself too much.

For instance, is the F-15 CSO a Nav, EWO, or WSO? Are there multiple CSOs in certain aircrafts? For example, is there a Nav and a WSO in an AC-130.

F-15s have WSOs. There are multiple 12XX positions on several aircraft. AC-130H and U models have a Nav, an EWO, and a FCO, all of whom have 12XX wings. An AC-130W has a 1x Nav and 1x CSO, again, same wings.

If you could, please list some air frames and say what the CSOs role is for each.

Based on my incomplete knowledge (others feel free to make corrections as necessary), here's a cliff notes version:

AC-130H & U - 1x Nav, 1x EWO, 1x FCO (FCO not usually available out of nav school)

AC-130J - ??, still being developed. I think the plan is 2x CSO.

AC-130W - 1x Nav, 1x CSO (CSO not usually available out of nav school)

B-1 - 2x WSO (OSO/DSO but dual qual'd)

B-52 - 1x Nav, 1x Radar Nav, 1x EWO (Nav/Radar Nav now dual-qual'd, not a different position you get out of nav school)

C-130E/H - 1x Nav (doesn't seem to be dropping from nav school much anymore due to airframe retirement)

E-3 AWACS - 1x Nav

E-8 JSTARs - 1x Nav

EC-130 - 1x Nav, 1-2x EWO mission-dependent

F-15E - 1x WSO

HC-130J - 1x CSO

KC-135 - 1x Nav

MC-130H - 1x Nav, 1x EWO (Nav not usually available out of nav school)

MC-130P - 1x Nav, (doesn't seem to be dropping from nav school much anymore due to airframe retirement)

MC-130J - 1x CSO

RC-135 - 1x Nav, several EWOs

U-28 - 1x CSO

In broad terms, Nav positions navigate and do timing/fuel/airdrop depending on airframe, EWO positions defend the airplane or do electronic attack, WSO/FCO/Radar Nav positions employ ordanance and manage weapons, CSO positions (as listed...everyone's technically a CSO) operate sensors, manage mission systems, etc. Many positions overlap or blur or mix these duties depending on what aircraft you're on.

Also, if you have any insights as to what the best aircrafts are, what are the most competitive, or any other insights, they would be greatly appreciated! I want to get AC-130s.

Totally depends on the person. My personal pick is the U-28 but then again that's the only one I've flown so YMMV.

What makes you want AC-130s? Think about that, talk to instructors who fly the aircraft you think you want once you get to nav school, do as well as you can, and when it comes to making your dream sheet determine what mission you want to do and put that #1. After that bloom where you're planted even if you don't get your first choice.

Oh yeah and I think someday I want to transition to pilot (preferably cargo.) I hear there is a pilot shortage that's going to only get worse in the coming years. Are any of you familiar with the process of transitioning to pilot and how competitive it is (or will be?)

If being a pilot someday is your goal keep that in mind but work hard to earn your CSO wing and then be the best CSO you can possibly be. If you're at the top of your CC's rack and stack and have a good reputation among the people in your squadron, doors will open themselves with a little luck and timing. Nav/CSO/whatever -> pilot will almost always be an option if that's what you want and you do the above.

Edit to add: Forgot the RJ and HC-130, corrected MC-J, thanks bronx

Edited August 23, 2013 by nsplayr

[bronxbomber252]

MC-130J has 1xCSO just like the HC-130J.

HC-130P are not going to be dropping anymore except for Guard/Reserve due to AD transitioning to the J model, the 79th at DM is already full J and the 71st at Moody will be full J by 2016.

[acebigdog]

Everyone, thank you so much for all the input! I've learned more in 10 minutes reading through this than I have in the last 8 months scouring the web!

If you have anything to add, by all means keep adding!

Much appreciated!

[drewpey]

nsplayr pretty much covered it all for you. (except there isn't an EWO on the MC-P)

No matter what airframe you go into as a nav/ewo/cso, you can expect to do a decent amount of mission planning, which results in multitasking different systems in flight to conduct whatever mission you're doing, while navigating (minding airspace), and probably working communications to someone. Different altitudes and airspeeds, but nothing too cosmic. Choose by mission.

[bronxbomber252]

Nsplayr... since you seem to be editing your post to keep it accurate, I would delete the "long time off" after HC-130J.

the guys in the 79RQS at DM are flying strictly the J, and here in the 71RQS at Moody we already have some J's with more on the way, they start flying in October and we will retire our last P NLT 2016.

[theSituation]

Nsplayr... since you seem to be editing your post to keep it accurate, I would delete the "long time off" after HC-130J.

the guys in the 79RQS at DM are flying strictly the J, and here in the 71RQS at Moody we already have some J's with more on the way, they start flying in October and we will retire our last P NLT 2016.

Honest question here, I rarely see the HCs flying at DM. Are they really flying? Or are they at kirtland for training?

[bronxbomber252]

They are really flying, but like all rescue assets fly predominately at night. In fact they have a few DM J's deployed right now actually.

If their flying hour program is anything like ours they maybe have 1-2 day lines a week and many weeks have none, but fly 1-2 night lines per day.