Liberty, Rights, and the Constitution 2

[ARIs 'R' Us]

Nancy Pelosi struggles to defend the NSA's violations of the 4th Amendment to a bunch of teenagers:

Did you watch the video? Yea, she struggled but of course we're not going to stop funding the NSA. She's still an idiot.

Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!

[10percenttruth]

There is a CSO T-6 Instructor Pilot out here in Pensacola who is going to be on the Fox News Channel this weekend, talking about many of the issues in this thread (Saturday and Sunday night at 10PM eastern time). It's the John Stossel special called, "Policing America: Security vs Liberty."

He was also quoted in a Slate Magazine article the other day, saying:

John Stossel published an article today (Policing America) about his upcoming special, and it mirrors the Slate Magazine article, and Bill Maher's latest episode on HBO and that common theme is that liberals, libertarians, and conservatives and people from all walks of life are starting to galvanize in their hatred of a police state. Anybody think this is happening? Are Americans actually starting to join together because they don't want government violating their American rights in our Constitution?

Should be an interesting show this weekend. As a wise man once said, never trust the media -- words to live by.

Sounds like he picked that battle..

[Mark1]

Believe what you want, I'm not going to argue with you.

I'm with you on the 'border' checkpoint issue, but I'm concerned for your health. You need to get yourself checked out for Jaundice. That or not permit the Fox makeup guy near you next time you're interviewed. I'm not sure which, but one of the two.

[Vertigo]

I'm wondering what everyone's thoughts are on Christie's detainment of a nurse who had no symptoms and tested negative for Ebola, in which she was only released after she sued.

Is it ok for the state to willy nilly quarantine asymptomatic people against their will in the interest of "public safety" (i.e. manufactured fear)?

https://www.wsbtv.com/news/lifestyles/health/nurses-ebola-quarantine-leads-lawsuit-chris-christ/nhsz6/?icmp=cmgcontent_internallink_relatedcontent_2014_partners1

[Butters]

Manufactured fear! Honestly, Ebola list last on my list of things I am worried about contracting in New Jersey or New York. I am mostly afraid of getting some Democrat on me or stepping in some Liberal... That stuff gets into your clothes and never washes out.

[Fuzz]

I'm wondering what everyone's thoughts are on Christie's detainment of a nurse who had no symptoms and tested negative for Ebola, in which she was only released after she sued.

Is it ok for the state to willy nilly quarantine asymptomatic people against their will in the interest of "public safety" (i.e. manufactured fear)?

https://www.wsbtv.com/news/lifestyles/health/nurses-ebola-quarantine-leads-lawsuit-chris-christ/nhsz6/?icmp=cmgcontent_internallink_relatedcontent_2014_partners1

I think there is justifiable cause to quarantine a person traveling from an area of know infection. Showing symptoms shouldn't really be a causal factor since the exact purpose of this quarantine is to see if they develop symptoms.

[Vertigo]

I think there is justifiable cause to quarantine a person traveling from an area of know infection. Showing symptoms shouldn't really be a causal factor since the exact purpose of this quarantine is to see if they develop symptoms.

So detention with no proof is ok with you. 40,000 people die in the U. S. every year. Should we now detain everyone who gets sick?

She tested negative for Ebola and had no symptoms.

[waveshaper]

Joint Chiefs Recommend Ebola 21-Day Isolation for all Services;

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/10/28/joint-chiefs-recommend-ebola-21-day-isolation-for-all-services.html?comp=7000023317828&rank=1

I think AFRICOM's 21 day isolation protocol is headed in a sensible direction for military personnel. I know that if I

was returning from a deployment to Ebolastan (West Africa) the last place on earth I would want to spend these 21

critical days is with my family. I would be more then content to spend these 21 days in some form of isolation (AFRICOM

model or something similar) with professionals providing oversight, control measures, and monitoring.

[Fuzz]

So detention with no proof is ok with you. 40,000 people die in the U. S. every year. Should we now detain everyone who gets sick?

She tested negative for Ebola and had no symptoms.

Well considering it takes 21 days for the symptoms to show; testing negative today doesn't really mean much. This isn't a detainment without cause nor is it an indefinite detainment. And yes lets take this to the absolute absurd, we should detain 5 year-old Jimmy with the cold.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Fuzz

[M2]

Honestly, I would be more pissed about having to spend 21 days in New Jersey!

[Butters]

So detention with no proof is ok with you. 40,000 people die in the U. S. every year. Should we now detain everyone who gets sick?

She tested negative for Ebola and had no symptoms.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Butters

[Vertigo]

Well considering it takes 21 days for the symptoms to show; testing negative today doesn't really mean much. This isn't a detainment without cause nor is it an indefinite detainment. And yes lets take this to the absolute absurd, we should detain 5 year-old Jimmy with the cold.

I'll take the expert medical advice of doctors and the cdc who say they can detect it before 21 days over some anonymous dude on a flyers forum.

You realize she was in there for less than 21 days, right?

The absolute absurb? There's been exactly TWO deaths in the U.S. - as opposed to 40K a year. You tell me what's more absurd... shitting on the Constitution without cause or quarantining an actual verifiable threat to public health that causes tens of thousands of deaths a year?

[Butters]

2 Deaths in the US??? Who was the second?

Ebola Facts: How Many Ebola Patients Have Been Treated Outside of Africa?

Edited October 28, 2014 by Butters

[waveshaper]

I'm wondering what everyone's thoughts are on Christie's detainment of a nurse who had no symptoms and tested negative for Ebola, in which she was only released after she sued.

Is it ok for the state to willy nilly quarantine asymptomatic people against their will in the interest of "public safety" (i.e. manufactured fear)?

https://www.wsbtv.com/news/lifestyles/health/nurses-ebola-quarantine-leads-lawsuit-chris-christ/nhsz6/?icmp=cmgcontent_internallink_relatedcontent_2014_partners1

I don't think Nurse Diesel/Ratchet or whatever the heck her name is handled that situation very well.

[ClearedHot]

I don't think Nurse Diesel/Ratchet or whatever the heck her name is handled that situation very well.

She didn't handle it very well?

She is a U.S. citizen who is NOT sick, has NOT committed a crime and was forced to live in a tent in New Jersey. I would think a few of you might be upset given the same circumstances. The question then becomes where do we draw the line? Influenza is airborne and a far bigger threat in the U.S., on average the "flu kills 36,000 people in the U.S. each year, why are you not quarantining everyone who gets the flu?

[TreeA10]

That 36,000 number keeps coming up so I found this. Statistics don't lie, only statisticians do. I think 500 sounds low but 36,000 is certainly too high.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/lawrence-solomon/death-by-influenza_b_4661442.html

We limit activities all the time when those activities might endanger others and erroring on the side of caution when dealing with a 70%Pk (30% and dropping quickly in the US) seems wise.

[waveshaper]

She didn't handle it very well?

She is a U.S. citizen who is NOT sick, has NOT committed a crime and was forced to live in a tent in New Jersey. I would think a few of you might be upset given the same circumstances. The question then becomes where do we draw the line? Influenza is airborne and a far bigger threat in the U.S., on average the "flu kills 36,000 people in the U.S. each year, why are you not quarantining everyone who gets the flu?

Just trying to put a humorous spin on some of the escalating Ebola absurdity/fighting occurring between the medical and

political communities. This nurse/hero does have a valid point but her arrogant/self-centered verbal/legal diatribe

rubbed me the wrong way. In this particular case (in my opinion) all parties behaved badly/exercised poor judgment

including Governor Christie and his henchmen. I think Governor Christie wins this latest round of the Ebola charade

because I don't think we will see anymore medical heroes returning from West Africa arriving in New Jersey.

Now back to Nurse Diesel; It appears she wont play by Maine's rules either and she isn't receiving a hometown hero type

welcome from some folks.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/kaci-hickox-follow-maine-ebola-quarantine-rule-lawyer/story?id=26501921

https://www.kswo.com/story/27055512/ebola-nurse-who-was-quarantined-now-in-maine

[Vertigo]

That 36,000 number keeps coming up so I found this. Statistics don't lie, only statisticians do. I think 500 sounds low but 36,000 is certainly too high.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/lawrence-solomon/death-by-influenza_b_4661442.html

We limit activities all the time when those activities might endanger others and erroring on the side of caution when dealing with a 70%Pk (30% and dropping quickly in the US) seems wise.

https://www.cdc.gov/workplacehealthpromotion/implementation/topics/immunization.html

"An average of 36,000 deaths and over 200,000 hospitalizations associated with influenza occur each year in the United States^1-2 "

[TheGuardGuy]

Joint Chiefs Recommend Ebola 21-Day Isolation for all Services;

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/10/28/joint-chiefs-recommend-ebola-21-day-isolation-for-all-services.html?comp=7000023317828&rank=1

I think AFRICOM's 21 day isolation protocol is headed in a sensible direction for military personnel. I know that if I

was returning from a deployment to Ebolastan (West Africa) the last place on earth I would want to spend these 21

critical days is with my family. I would be more then content to spend these 21 days in some form of isolation (AFRICOM

model or something similar) with professionals providing oversight, control measures, and monitoring.

Hagel orders quarantine for returning troops.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/10/29/ebola-military-isolation-troops-joint-chiefs/18108613/

[Vertigo]

2 Deaths in the US??? Who was the second?

Ebola Facts: How Many Ebola Patients Have Been Treated Outside of Africa?

My bad. Bad memory- I thought it was the guy that flew in from Liberia and the initial nurse that had contracted it were the two that died. I guess she ended up pulling through.

[Butters]

Which is why this is all just fear mongering. Not a single person that has contracted Ebola 'IN" the US has died. They have all recovered relatively quickly.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Butters

[BFM this]

https://www.cdc.gov/workplacehealthpromotion/implementation/topics/immunization.html

An average of 36,000 deaths and over 200,000 hospitalizations associated with influenza occur each year in the United States^1-2 "

"The CDC's decision to play up flu deaths dates back a decade, when it realized the public wasn't following its advice on the flu vaccine. During the 2003 flu season "the manufacturers were telling us that they weren't receiving a lot of orders for vaccine,"Dr. Glen Nowak, associate director for communications at CDC's National Immunization Program, told National Public Radio. "It really did look like we needed to do something to encourage people to get a flu shot."

Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!

[Fuzz]

I'll take the expert medical advice of doctors and the cdc who say they can detect it before 21 days over some anonymous dude on a flyers forum.

You realize she was in there for less than 21 days, right?

The absolute absurb? There's been exactly TWO deaths in the U.S. - as opposed to 40K a year. You tell me what's more absurd... shitting on the Constitution without cause or quarantining an actual verifiable threat to public health that causes tens of thousands of deaths a year?

You and I agree on a lot when it comes to Civil Liberties/warrantless search and seizure etc. I don't see this a shitting on the Constitution, since there is justified concern this women or any travel could have Ebola. No they aren't criminals but they could constitute a threat to the general public. Yes she didn't spend 21 days in NJ because Christie caved to political pressure and sent her to Maine, but she is still under a quarantine order there. If the medical professionals say they can detect and clear people earlier than that then I say great. However, I'm skeptical of you trusting the CDC and considering the current political climate. Considering the flurry of conflicting information from "experts", quarantine against a high mortality rate virus with no solid cure is and always will be the best practice. Yes the flu kills thousands every year but what percentage is that of actual people infected? Furthermore we have successfully handled the handful of people infected here in the states, but from my friends in the medical community, they are I'll equipped to deal with even a small outbreak. I have no interest in getting bent out of shape over this, it is currently not a massive threat, but it could become so.

[Vertigo]

You and I agree on a lot when it comes to Civil Liberties/warrantless search and seizure etc. I don't see this a shitting on the Constitution, since there is justified concern this women or any travel could have Ebola. No they aren't criminals but they could constitute a threat to the general public. Yes she didn't spend 21 days in NJ because Christie caved to political pressure and sent her to Maine, but she is still under a quarantine order there. If the medical professionals say they can detect and clear people earlier than that then I say great. However, I'm skeptical of you trusting the CDC and considering the current political climate. Considering the flurry of conflicting information from "experts", quarantine against a high mortality rate virus with no solid cure is and always will be the best practice. Yes the flu kills thousands every year but what percentage is that of actual people infected? Furthermore we have successfully handled the handful of people infected here in the states, but from my friends in the medical community, they are I'll equipped to deal with even a small outbreak. I have no interest in getting bent out of shape over this, it is currently not a massive threat, but it could become so.

I get what you're saying, but "could become" isn't enough in my mind to forfeit basic human freedom.

[TreeA10]

Okay, there you are, traveling somewhere on a commercial jet with your wife (partner for Eagle drivers), kids, infants, parents, brothers and sisters. Also onboard is a guy that recently handled a dying Ebola patient showing no symptoms plus a person that treated that person and has a low grade fever but her boss says she is good to travel. Your family will be seated in front of, behind, and directly beside these people. So you guys are telling me that you see no problem exposing your loved ones to these people?