commander directed q3, your opinion?

[BFM this]

A commander should take responsibility for h/h contribution to a situation, be that good or bad. If said subordinate commits suicide after weeks of "warning signs", the CC will likely hang (sts).

If the CC's been doing everything in the book and even thinking out of the container trying to be forward thinking and address problems then an honest mistake or a clear act of stupidity shouldn't bring too much wrath from on high. Once again, depends on how much common sense is rampant in all levels of the particular command.

For instance: in my prior life, said fire bottle situation happened to my community some years ago. Hundreds of briefings, hangar stories, and CRM topics later, even when the Nav walked up to the plane the hair would stand up on the back of my neck when I saw that fire bottle positioned under the radome. Believe me, before we even unlocked the door, someone would move that damn fire bottle, and, oh yeah, it became common technique for one of the pilots to have eyes on that thing before we let the plane move one inch.

Which leads me to my original thought when this post started: Why does T-line insist on putting that fire bottle in one of the few spots that it cannot be seen from the airplane? They've been doing it for years and I'm sure there's more than two that've jammed one in the nosewell.

[Guest spar91]

Originally posted by flyinjunky:

A commander should take responsibility for h/h contribution to a situation, be that good or bad.

i think that's well put.

and it supports my philosophy that you can have all the training in the world, or all the best support programs on base (ie aadd), but if a troop is not willing to receive/apply the training/message, and they subsequently do something wrong/stupid, how can you (sq/group/wing/cc, ac, whatever) be held accountable when you've done everything you can to prevent the bad situation?

on a side note, the situation i proposed was "hypothetical" just to start a conversation about a slightly gray area of leadership. i really don't have any more information to add to the scenario.

thanks for everyone's comments!

i think there has been professional, valid, and effective discussion on this topic.

[Guest skipplet]

Originally posted by spar91:

i think that's well put.

[Guest Jollygreen]

A lot of advice in this thread on how to be a commander. Wondering how many giving it are/were squadron, group, or wing commanders.

Not that that is germane to the discussion. But, meaning no offense, I've seen some concerns in other threads about non-pilots giving advice to pilots. Is there a correlation?

[BFM this]

Absolutely (raises his hand).

Although I wasn't giving advise per se, I've seen a handfull of commanders ranging from good to not so good from the bottom looking up. Some older craniums on the board can probably speak from a closer vantage.

[Guest skipplet]

Originally posted by Jollygreen:

A lot of advice in this thread on how to be a commander. Wondering how many giving it are/were squadron, group, or wing commanders.

Not that that is germane to the discussion. But, meaning no offense, I've seen some concerns in other threads about non-pilots giving advice to pilots. Is there a correlation?

I think this is a little different in that it's more a philosophical discussion and not technical. You don't have to be a general to understand leadership.

[Hacker]

Originally posted by flyinjunky:

Absolutely (raises his hand).

You're a SQ/CC, Group CC, or Wing CC?

[Toro]

I don't think you're going to find any SQ/Group/Wing CC's on this board. The closest you'll find is old farts like Rainman, Snake, or MadMax. I would take their advice along the lines of what I would take from any SQ/CC.

[M2]

JG

I've been on G-series orders with command authority/responsibility for 1700 individuals, albeit for a limited time period (two months). During that short time, I put several people out of the USAF for various reasons (mostly just for being fat slobs), sent one to jail (well, we court-martialed him and the board sentenced him to jail), and did a command-directed mental health evaluation on an individual who was exhibiting possible suicidal tendencies. I also issued no contact orders on three individuals involved in a "love triangle," took a stripe off one individual for not complying with a direct order, and had to bust an airman from my own unit for disobeying and order and lying to an NCO. Loads 'o fun.

I've also had to deal with suicides, deaths and other administrative headaches as a part of the wing staff and for a two-star (exec'ing). I know all that isn't the same as fully commanding a squadron, but the principle is the same...you accept the responsibilities that go with the authority you are given. Basically it is the same responsibilities you accept when you become a commissioned officer, it is just "notched up" when you become a commander. And, as Karl so elequantly pointed out, rank is not always an indication of leadership...

Cheers! M2

[BFM this]

Originally posted by Hacker:

You're a SQ/CC, Group CC, or Wing CC?

[Guest Stranger]

It's important to remember, one Q3 does not a career end.

There is much we don't know about the pilot/crew involved from the original post. Maybe they weren't taking shortcuts; maybe they were. Maybe the LM was a lone "bad actor"; maybe the AC had fostered an atmosphere of lax attention to detail. Maybe this was a "first offense"; maybe there's a history. If there was no previous history, maybe this is the beginning of one. If nothing further happens, this pilot will survive the rest of h/h career with a Q3... If more does happen, history will have been documented, and this pilot's future commanders will have a full picture of what has transpired.

When problems aren't documented, pilots who should be grounded continue to fly, dangerous situations can develop, and perhaps a pilot who should have been grounded instead drives a B-52 into the ground practicing for an airshow, killing his entire crew.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

Originally posted by Jollygreen:

A lot of advice in this thread on how to be a commander. Wondering how many giving it are/were squadron, group, or wing commanders.

Originally posted by Toro:

I don't think you're going to find any SQ/Group/Wing CC's on this board. The closest you'll find is old farts like Rainman, Snake, or MadMax. I would take their advice along the lines of what I would take from any SQ/CC.

My change of command is this Saturday. I'll move out of the OG/CC's big office with the big desk and someone to answer the phone and pile all my crap into the janitor's closet until I go on terminal leave.

FWIW...I have taken IP and FL status away from guys when they screw up. I have fired guys, as in "clean out your locker and I'll help you get another job flying C-5s or something but you're done here." I have never directed a Q3. I think doing something in a gradebook or on the letter of Xs is a far better place to start than hammering a guy in his permanent record (FEF). I know of it being used and I think it is a valuable tool in the right circumstances. Luckily, I've never had to do it. I don't know the circumstances of how this particular terrible no damage taxi incident happened so I won't even comment on it.

I will say this...the goal of a commander is to be demanding and fair and focus on doing the right thing for the right reason, even if it is harder. The part some folks don't like is the demanding part. You have to demand a lot from the guys because you may be standing in front of them saying "follow me" on the first night of the war and the last thing you want to worry about is if you trained them well enough. They might not like it when you kick their ass everyday in training before the war but their families will be happy to see them when they make it home after the war. No one will thank you for making sure they were good enough to survive combat, nor should they. It's your job.

Make them fly every sortie like it is their last training opportunity before combat...because it just might be.

[Guest sleepy]

Stranger in a Strange Land...

Walker Percy? or Carl Sagan?

Also, this from Rainman: "Make them fly every sortie like it is their last training opportunity before combat...because it just might be."

On that, I'm no guru, but I sure wish that this would carry over to civilian, 200 hour wonderboy CFIs. If everyone (not just student pilots, I mean EVERYONE) would develope a little thicker skin and sense of reponsibility, fewer folks would be *****ing about which direction the feces flow.