C-17 4-engine flameout/SIB/FEB questions in here

[ThreeHoler]

That video is the one thing they refuse to let us see...yet it would be massively informative.

[tunes]

The SIB makes the crew, especially you, sound like you had no idea what you were doing and only luck got that jet on the ground safely..

Combat Camera was in the flight deck correct? Would love to see that video. And Day Man, you got screwed.

That video is the one thing they refuse to let us see...yet it would be massively informative.

all of these....

[ForgotPassword]

I opened this and thought I was in the "What's wrong with the AF" thread.

[slc]

Was the cell over the field yellow/red/magenta? What time of year? Also, do you remember what the range was set on the radar?

[addict]

The weather radar is a hot topic, but it diverts attention away from the people who signed the flight orders and the Form 8's, and away from the inadequate EP training.

Also, 17 Sept

Edited September 28, 2013 by addict

[Day Man]

Thanks Bro! Curious about how much wx radar training you guys get. Could you say that it was a factor?

"Shoes and Strap Hangers" = Non aviators or higher ranking aviators with very little flying experience, wantabes......dickheads etc. Got it...sounds about right!

Can't speak to findings, however, Wx radar training was a focus item after our SIB, so draw your own conclusions.

62 AW attempted to brief a couple hundred people in a C-17 hangar, but the heavy duty fans on the ceiling were left on and delayed the briefing for a good 15 minutes. It was stupidly ironic, because they had emphasized how much a crew could do in such a short time, but in as much time some staffer or Colonel could figure out how to turn off a fan, the entire EP was over and the C-17 was on the ground. The audio was then restarted from the beginning but just about the entire wing already saw the irony.

We weren't allowed to go, but that is funny.

Day man, it takes some balls and humility to put yourself out there like this. Thanks for sharing. I've only heard rumors, and absolutely nothing through official channels. Was the specific cause of the nose damage? Can you tell about your meeting with AMC/CC and what was the basic justification for his decision to override the FEB?

I'm guessing the hail. Edit: according to the CDI "The presence of extreme precipitation is validated by damage to the aircraft radome." And I've never had the pleasure of meeting AMC/CC. He didn't have the balls to tell me in person, even though he was at my base less than a week before I got his disqualifying memo.

What was the intensity of the returns?

Green, yellow, magenta

Yeah, that's what we heard too. One of our guys, after seeing the jaded CRM brief in the sim, said how dumb the crew was because "they knowingly and intentionally flew straight through magenta." And he implied that such a single, bad decision was what caused the whole thing.

Does the radar in the C-17 have an automatic mode, or do you have to with the gain after every pitch and altitude change? Did you see the magenta that you "intentionally flew straight through" like this guy said, or was it not up?

Yes it was in auto mode. Magenta is moderate turbulence, and can cover-up more severe precip. We saw the same magenta that we saw before with no real precip or notable turbulence.

The SIB makes the crew, especially you, sound like you had no idea what you were doing and only luck got that jet on the ground safely..

Yes, I'm an idiot...what was the question?

The thing I learned from my mishap was there is no such thing as safety privilege, and that you are guilty until proven otherwise. The same applies to airdrop review boards after an airdrop incident.

Bingo.

Combat Camera was in the flight deck correct? Would love to see that video. And Day Man, you got screwed.

Correct.

that video is probably buried next to where ever they put the ark of the covenant at the end of Indiana Jones.

They found it for the FEBs...

Was the cell over the field yellow/red/magenta? What time of year? Also, do you remember what the range was set on the radar?

green, yellow, magenta in that order. 17 Sept 2010. No idea on the range...

Edited September 28, 2013 by day man

[matmacwc]

If for FEBs, then for FOIA. Not SIB protected. Post when you get them Day Man

[Day Man]

If for FEBs, then for FOIA. Not SIB protected. Post when you get them Day Man

When I get what?

[Hueypilot]

When I get what?

I think he means go FOIA the videos. Lots of things happen in a short span during emergencies. No one can predict how it'll play out which is why the -1 and the Vol 3 pubs give us the flex to deviate from established procedure in the interest of flight safety.

Unfortunately these days, I see leadership that chooses to view a mishap in a sterile vacuum at ground speed zero, and they expect 100% compliance of all regs/procedures even if things happened quickly and it was life or death. Truth is many of them would have done the same as you did, or worse.

The fact that you and the others on that airplane are alive today should make you feel good, regardless how the USAF treated you.

[Day Man]

I think he means go FOIA the videos. Lots of things happen in a short span during emergencies. No one can predict how it'll play out which is why the -1 and the Vol 3 pubs give us the flex to deviate from established procedure in the interest of flight safety.

Unfortunately these days, I see leadership that chooses to view a mishap in a sterile vacuum at ground speed zero, and they expect 100% compliance of all regs/procedures even if things happened quickly and it was life or death. Truth is many of them would have done the same as you did, or worse.

The fact that you and the others on that airplane are alive today should make you feel good, regardless how the USAF treated you.

Ah...I have no desire to watch that video again. If you want to try, have at it!

[matmacwc]

All I'm saying is you can try your case in the court of public opinion, if you wish. You are already out of the military, proceed as you desire.

Is the AIB out?

Edited September 28, 2013 by matmacwc

[Day Man]

Is the AIB out?

Never did an AIB.

[Spinner]

Unfortunately these days, I see leadership that chooses to view a mishap in a sterile vacuum at ground speed zero, and they expect 100% compliance of all regs/procedures even if things happened quickly and it was life or death.

It's because "leadership" doesn't want their supervisor to come back on them because they want to make the next rank. I had it happen to me once on a deployment, but I stood my ground and took the peepee smack (STS). Funny how "leadership" didn't really care a week later. The guy was a douche who I didn't respect, and still don't to this day.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk - now Free

[sixpack]

Day Man, thanks for having the balls to come to an open forum and field questions about this incident.

I think it's a sad state of affairs these days in the Air Force that if you make one mistake your career probably won't survive. Your situation I'm sure was more difficult than most could fathom and you all still landed safely with nobody ending up dead. It's crazy to know that the FEB recommended you stay but the AMC/CC decided to make an example of you and give you the boot. He also tried to end the careers of those involved in the airdrop incident. I personally seen how their careers were affected while the AMC/CC kept these good people in limbo for over a year while trying his best to screw them as much as he could. This type of shit leadership and lack of top cover these days will do nothing but degrade morale and increase the occurrence of lying to cover shit up. Gone are the days of admitting that you messed up, learning from the experience and teaching others, and getting on with your life.

While I'm not thinking you guys were totally right with your actions that day I can see how that could have easily happened to me. The Pakistani controllers are all hard to understand and their comms equipment usually sucks balls. I remember on a trip to OPRN having to ask the controllers to repeat themselves several times cause neither I or the copilot could understand them.

Also, the new WX radar in our plane is a great tool, but I think it very often overestimates the returns, making them seem worse than they are. I've personally been in day VMC what seemed to be ten thousand feet on top of the WX and have the screen surrounded in red (not hashed either) while the copilot and I scratch our heads as to why it's displaying that. I've also seen a light/moderate rain shower sitting on the ground lined up for takeoff at ETAR fill the screen with RED returns.. These experiences I had made me doubt the radar several times and if I were flying that night I could have second guessed the returns as well.

I really think it's commendable that given the circumstances you all were able to land. Sure you all screwed up but the fact you and all your pax and crew are alive should be talked about. It's crazy that there's actual video of this incident and it's being buried never to see the light of day in AMC. Leadership has once again lost my respect for their actions handling this situation. If i didn't know any better I would consider the leadership more politician than actual leaders.

[Fuzz]

Day Man I think Azimiths post was saying the report was skewed unfairly towards the crews actions. And green and yellow w/ magenta and nowhere else to go? I don't really see what else you could have done.

[Day Man]

Day Man I think Azimiths post was saying the report was skewed unfairly towards the crews actions.

Copy

And green and yellow w/ magenta and nowhere else to go? I don't really see what else you could have done.

Our planned alternate was OAIX...can you imagine the inbound call to ops with a jet full of Pakistani refugess?

[Craftsman]

This said "leader" was the one that retired in Jan of this year correct?

It saddens me to know that this AF lets aviators like you go and make you sound criminal, when I bet you ask any of those pax or their families that you are heroes. Thanks to you and your Crews incredible airmanship (it may of had mistakes, but hell we are human we make those), you saved countless lives.

I hope the young guys reading this (that means you AFROTC, OTS, USAFA guys) learn something from this. Humility and the balls to stand for what you believe is true leadership. If this was 30years + earlier you would have been awarded DFC's.

Cheers to you brother ! Rounds are one me if I ever get the pleasure to cross paths with you.

[FUSEPLUG]

day man, thanks for coming forward on this one. You have been raked through the coals in this community as becoming the proverbial "snowman" PNF (PM or whatever we are calling it this week). I wasn't there. I haven't seen the report. I think you guys got suckered into a shit-storm.

Since this occurrence, our safety sups and phase sims reek of fixes that AMC "leadership" has determined appropriate for a shitty radar system upgrade on their jets. You guys became victims to the APS 150 that artificially paints light rain as a torrential down-pour. After a certain point, one becomes numb to what that shitty radar shows. While I think some aspects of the CRM on this crew broke down, I can easily see how it happened. They've re-written section 7 of the dash one and given us some circuit breaker fixes for erroneous returns, but in the end it is still a marginal radar system that most of us tend to marginalize.

[FUSEPLUG]

And one more thing... when PA shows up with a camera and wants to film what you are doing upstairs, deny them! NEVER TALK TO THE MEDIA! (Thanks, Rainman)

When's the next VSP?

[Duck]

Not soon enough brother.

Cheers Day Man, hate to see the Air Force falling apart like it is.

[Fuzz]

Copy

Our planned alternate was OAIX...can you imagine the inbound call to ops with a jet full of Pakistani refugess?

I can only imagine how that would go down, and given the fact you probably weren't very well off on fuel sounds like you were cornered. And +1 to what FUSEPLUG said about the radar, I'm fairly new and already am cynical about the Radar system. We're you equipped with the new or old system?

Also it sounds like everything I've heard about your actions is grossly and unfairly skewed, every I talked to until I talked with that sim instructor made it sound like you were an utterly worthless copilot and an idiot for trying to start the APU, but I honestly wonder how many experienced guys if they had been in that same situation without this as 20/20 hindsight would have done things wrong too, my guess is a whole heck of a lot.

Procedures done right or wrong you and the other pilot brought that plane back on the ground safely, and that deserves a beer from me if we ever cross paths.

[C-21.Pilot]

Our planned alternate was OAIX...can you imagine the inbound call to ops with a jet full of Pakistani refugess?

I don't see the logical solution to the thought process here? I'm a former C-17 and C-21 EP/IP and know this incident rather foggy....but am quite familiar with standard AMC policy, what is normally taught with regards GRACC and what is/isn't taught there, what "normal" discussions consist of, and finally, systems on board. Like most folks, we have all had our incidents where we ORM / CRM'd the heck out of the mission.

We can all Monday morning quarterback the crews decision all day -- and it's easy at ground speed zero. That is NOT my intent. I am NOT asking how you guys handled the EP, or the actions after the incident. You guys lived, thats what really counts.

What I'd like to discuss is why you guys pressed when it seems like the cards were stacked against you.

I would completely DISAGREE that this comment should have even been in your thought process.

Bringing 170+ refugees to OAIX. It could have easily been controlled and that is why there are logistic professionals there. Things easily could have been done to provide the necessary food/water/shelter to those individuals.

So, my question to you and the crew is:

1. Was the thought process to not divert ever discussed, and if it was, why was the CREWs (i.e. AC) decision to continue.

2. Why did the AC allow Combat Camera on the flight deck. I had several high profile missions where they were MEGPd -- I told them straight up they would NOT be allowed on the flight deck.

[Karl Hungus]

And I've never had the pleasure of meeting AMC/CC. He didn't have the balls to tell me in person, even though he was at my base less than a week before I got his disqualifying memo.

Since neither of you are in the military any more, have you considered looking him up and meeting him in person? I'd at least consider it if I were in your shoes... with the full realization that I'd be looking at a long prison sentence after the meeting.

[LookieRookie]

Bingo.

Do you believe that the AMC/CC used the SIB in his determination?

[matmacwc]

That would be a slippery slope